Yeah, I’m following you Aaron. The example on p.466 certainly counters my understanding of how Strike vs. Block/counterstrike functions. Now in Revised, it’s clear that strikes are always Ob 1 base and defense successes remove strike successes. As I read Gold, I took it that this had changed with the versus interactions of Strike. The example on p.466 is how I understood Revised to work but I thought it was wrong for Gold. I’ll have to let someone else clarify that for us.
Either way though, it still adds drama to throw block dice after strike dice, I get that. And either way, block dice can redirect targeted strikes. The real problem though is whether there’s a base Ob of 1 to strike, even during versus. It seems pedantic at first, because obviously you need a success to actually hit. But if there’s no base Ob, that one success is going to also count as a 1 MoS…which makes a difference.
There is not a base Ob 1 to anything during a versus test. This is why we were specific with vs tests and standard tests. This why we listed all of the obstacles for each action.
If I Strike with 1 successs and you Counterstrike/defend with 0 successes, you deliver (other modifiers notwithstanding) an Incidental hit.
If I Strike with 1 success and you Counterstrike/defend with 1 success, your blow is deflect. It is a versus test tie and the tie goes to the defender.
Er, not to sound particularly contradictory, that’s exactly what I’m talking about with the base Ob1. The same as the base Ob1 to strike unopposed. P441 and p466. Ob1 means one success and you’ve hit.
What Dev and Chris were saying was more to the tune of, “If I’m using a knife and you block/counterstrike, I roll one success and you don’t, that gives me a Mark hit rather than incidental because the base Ob of 0 there gives me 1 MoS that I can spend on increasing my damage output”.
Am I interpreting you correctly, guys?
Edit: What that means then, is that one success on the block raises the Ob to hit to 2, meaning one success on block means you need two successes to hit me, yes? It’s a long method of thinking it through, but it means there’s no weirdness like the knifeSuccess+blockFail=hitMark instantly
Yeah Aaron, that’s where I’m coming from. And I see Luke’s example above the same way that you do. Luke, your example of 0 block successes and one strike success makes it look, to me, like there’s an inherent Ob 1 to strike in the versus test.
The way I understood it would be that the striker succeeded by a MoS of 1, which can be used to increase to a Mark for the knife or target a different body part, as per the Strike description for vs tests.
Sorry if I’m being particularly dense.
EDIT: Aaron, I also agree with your edited example. It’s the MoS that’s hanging me though. If Blocker gets 1 success, and striker gets 2 successes, that’s a MoS of 1 still, right? Am I lost in the woods on something as simple as MoS?
And just to be super clear since I seem to be mucking things up pretty well here, it’s p.441 under strike that’s leading me to where I am. “Successes over the obstacle or margin of success in versus tests are used to increase damage and target a specific location.”
Hang on. I’m going to pretend this is math class and I’m reaching the right answer but the work is shown wrong and I’ve lost marks.
Redo.
In a simple, non versus test, Ob is 1, and success beyond 1 allows me to move the hit and increase to Mark, Superb.
In a versus test, we ditch that entirely. My MoS beyond your block is spent accordingly: 1st success above your block (even if block is 0) - hit, incidental; 2nd success above - add or location; 3rd success above - q.v.
But that is not the same as a base obstacle 1. If I roll 4 successes in a strike and you counterstrike/defend with 3 successes, I get a margin of success of 1. But that was an Obstacle 3 test for me.
Right, I understand it’s not the same and I’m clear on why that’s an Obstacle 3 test.
I also now see that one success must be spent in a versus test actually achieve the Incidental. I wasn’t reading it that way. I assumed it was a versus test and if I won it, I’ve achieved an Incidental strike. In the case of one block success and two strike successes, I won with an MoS of 1. I thought this meant I’ve achieved an Incidental and also have a MoS of 1 to spend on either moving the strike to another location or using towards Add.
Sure. As it says in Versus Tests on page 26, ties go to the defender. This is backed up in Tied Versus Tests on page 441 in the Fight chapter: “A tied versus test in Fight indicates no result. Move on to the next action.”
I just wanted to be very clear on the difference between an Ob 1 test and a test with a Margin of Success of 1. The distinction is essential to advancement.
Nah, I was clear on tied versus tests being no result too. I just didn’t realize that your first success from you MoS was needed for the Incidental in a versus test. It makes perfect sense, that just wasn’t my take away from the reading. I can read the words so closely that I miss the big picture sometimes, you should know that by now Thor!
So am I the only dumbass that misinterpreted this?
Nope, I was under the impression that an MoS of 2 on a versus test would be enough to upgrade an Add 2 weapon to a Mark result. The way it’s been explained here, defense rolls of any kind really improve your chances of mitigating damage, even if you’re unlikely to completely avoid an attack. Which is, I suppose, the point of defending.
Take a look at Add on page 466. Add expresses the number of extra successes that must be allocated to increase damage. So a margin of success of 1 (or 1 success on an Ob 1 test) gives you an Incidental hit. If the Add of your weapon is 2, then every two extra successes beyond that increases the damage by one step. In other words, a sword delivers an Incidental hit with a margin of success of 1 or 2; a Mark hit with a margin of success of 3 or 4; and a Superb hit with a margin of success of 5 or greater.
You must, of course, look at the margin of success after spending successes to aim the blow.
For me, the confusion arose from how I was combining the info under Versus Test Actions with the Strike description. Versus Test Actions says, the player with the highest successes wins. So if I’m striking and I win, I’ve hit (incidental). Then Strike says to spend my MoS to increase damage or move strikes. It doesn’t specifically say anything about spending one for the Incidental in a versus test. It’s even worded differently than the other versus test actions like Push and Lock which specifically say “win by one” to get the default result.
That’s how I ended up where I did, just analyzed it (poorly) too much I guess. I hate I drug this one out so far but at least I’m clear now.
No worries man. I understand. The important point is that the one success gives you the hit. Extra successes beyond that success must be spent to aim your blow or increase the damage. Aside from this one hiccup, you seem to grasp everything rather well from what I’ve seen!
All is understood. It seems I was coming at the same results as you, Thor, just with weird math stemming from the blocking example on page 466, where it mucks about with Ob1 strike before the block gets added in. Mea culpa
