Fight!

Burning Wheel First Reading
1

Overall, I think BWG is really a nice improvement over BWR, however, I really think it could have used a very detailed example of play for Fight. There is so much going on in the rules with gaining advantage, changing weapons, shifting Obs, etc., that it is really hard to see the subsystem as a coherent whole.

I know BWHQ is a ghost town, and only a handful of people have the books so far, but I don’t suppose someone with more experience with BW combat could create a true blow-by-blow between a couple of armored opponents starting from engaging to incapacitation? I’m trying to wrap my head around how this works in play.

Anyone?

Jaime

2

That would be fun! I will do so. Give me a couple days.

  • Don
3

I’m going to do this as well. It’s a fun exercise, if nothing else.

4

The more the merrier.

I wouldn’t stop anyone from illustrating a two on one combat either… :slight_smile:

Jaime

5

Okay, this probably isn’t the absolute best one that could be done, but I went through the trouble of actually playing this Fight out, so I thought I’d post it as an example. I din’t use any Artha, Help or FoRKs, because I wanted to try to keep things as clear as possible. In retrospect, I should have probably played with some of the other actions that give up or gain advantage. Maybe I’ll do another one of these when I have the time.

Combatants: The Duelist (BWG 565) versus the Roden Assassin (BWG 570).

Setup: The fight breaks out in a castle corridor. The Duelist has just come up a staircase, where the Assassin was laying in wait. The Roden tried to surprise the Duelist, but fails. the Duelist attempts to Engage the Assassin (BWG 462). The Duelist has his Arming Sword drawn, but his Parrying Blade is still in its sheath. The Assassin has his knife ready.

1. Engage: The Roden wields a knife (Shortest) and has a Stride of 8. The Duelist wields his Arming Sword (Long) and has a Stride of 7.

[u]Assassin:[/u] Spd B6 + 1D (Longest Stride) = B7
[u]Duelist:[/u] Spd B4 + 2D (Longest Weapon by 2 lengths (BWG 430)) = B6

Intents: The Duelist wants to back the Roden into the far wall and corner him. The Roden tries to get the high ground and back the Duelist down the stairs.

Result: Roden: 4s; Duelist: 4s - A tie! But the Duelist has the longer weapon length, and gains the advantage (BWG 430). The knife-wielding Roden is at +2 Ob (BWG 431), and is backed up against the wall!

2. First Exchange
Intents: The Duelist tries to stab at the rat, then shove him into the wall while he draws his Parrying Blade. The Roden attempts to shove his attacker back, tackle and pin him, then finish him off with two quick stabs with his knife.

Script:
V1: Duelist: A1 - Strike; Roden: A1- Push
V2: Duelist: A1 - Push, A2 - Draw…; Roden: A1 - Tackle, A2 - Lock
V3: Duelist: A1 - …Weapon; Roden: A1- Strike. A2 - Strike

Volley 1
A1 - Strike vs. Push: The Duelist tests his B5 Sword skill at Ob 1 and gets 4 successes. The Roden has his arms up to ward off the blow, but the Duelist spends 1 success to move the blow to the Assassin’s chest for a Mark hit at B7. This is a light wound for the Roden! He’s now at -1D and has to make a Steel test, which he barely passes. The Roden tests his Power against Ob 4; that’s 1/2 the Duelist’s B4 Speed, +2 Ob for losing the Engagement test. He gets 2 successes and fails to Push the Duelist away.

Volley 2
A1 - Push vs. Tackle: The Duelist test his Power versus the Roden’s Power +1D. The Duelist has a B5 Power, and the Roden’s is B4, but he’s at -1D for the Light wound he took in the last volley. That makes it B5 vs B4 (B4 - 1D, +1D for Tackle). The Roden gets 2 measly successes to the Duelist’s 4 - the swordsman shoves the Roden hard into the wall, disorienting him and giving him +1 Ob to his next action due to being disoriented. If the Duelist had gotten fewer successes, he would have had to switch to Hand/Knife range, but since he beat his opponent by 2, he’s able to maintain the advantage with his sword (BWG 447).

A2 - Lock vs. Draw Weapon: The Assassin tests his Power vs. Ob 6; 1/2 the Duelist’s B5 Power (I rounded up) + 2 Ob for Engagement disadvantage, +1 Ob for being Staggered by the Duelist’s Push. He gets a single success. The poor Assassin can’t see straight enough through the pain - much less get past the Duelist’s blade - to get a hand on his quarry.

Volley 3
A1 - Draw Weapon vs. Strike: The Roden tests his B4 Knife against Ob 3. He’s still at -1D, so that’s 3 dice at Ob 3. He misses completely, and the Duelist’s Parrying Blade clears its scabbard.

A2 - Strike: The Assassin has an unopposed Strike! He’s injured, but he keeps all of his actions from his Reflexes until the start of the next Exchange (BWG 433). Again, it’s a Knife test at Ob 3. He gets 2 successes, not enough to score a hit. The Duelist remains unscathed.

3. Positioning: The Assassin, clearly in a bad way, tries to break past his opponent with a Disengage. The Duelist wants to press his advantage and keep the Roden pinned in the corner with a Vie for Position.The Rat has a Stride of 8, giving him a +1D advantage, but his injury cancels that out. The Duelist gets +2D to his Positioning for having advantage with a sword (BWG 436). They test Speed vs Speed, with the Roden Assassin getting 5 successes to the Duelist’s 4. Lucky rat! He wins his Disengage, escapes, and bolts off into the castle! If the Duelist wants to finish his opponent, he’ll have to track him down and re-engage him. For now,though, the Fight is over.

6

Shaun that was an excellent example! Additionally this version of Fight! seems to play out intuitively and streamlined.

More examples! I cannot wait to get my hands on the book.

-k

7

Yeah, it was really much simpler than the old Fight! system. The new Engagement and Positioning rules are super easy, and I love how each maneuver interaction is mapped out.

8

Longest Weapon does not apply in positioning (436), only when engaging, the Duelist has +2d from having advantage during positioning, had the assassin had advantage he would have got a +2d bonus, and the duelist would have got nothing.

Minor, but still worth noting, I think this is still super helpful, thanks for doing it.

9

Hmm, that’s actually really interesting seeing all the little changes. If I’ve got this right:

  1. Positioning only happens once per exchange, and grants the loser +2 Ob to their actions vs the winner.
  2. There are more in-depth positioning actions. Disengage, Vie for Positioning, I presume there’s a charge too?
  3. Would I be right in thinking wound penalties subtract from Reflexes now, but only take effect the exchange after the wound was taken?
  4. It looks like there’s no longer Lunging/Optimal/Within Striking Distance. Instead, there’s just normal fighting distance, fist/knife range, and out of range, right?

Thanks for the examples!

10

I want moar examples. Pretty please? :slight_smile:

-k

11

Yup, I got that wrong. Having advantage grants dice to positioning based on your weapon. Short weapons give +1D, anything longer grants +2D. Shortest grants no dice, if I read the chart correctly.

  1. Pretty much. You either Engage with an opponent, or you Position against your current opponent at the top of the exchange. Advantage gives an Ob penalty between +0 and +5 depending on weapon lengths.
  2. Disengage, Vie for Position, or Let 'em Come. That’s it. Charge is a maneuver.
  3. Yup!
  4. Kind of. It’s more like there’s only Optimal and Lunging, and you’re out of range if you successfully Disengage.
12

Shaun, that was great!

And I agree that we need more examples, if only to sate us until we can get our own books. Burning vicariously as it were.

13

Shaun-

Totally what I was looking for…

The page references were very helpful.

More please.

Jaime

14

Glad this is helpful! I’ll try to maybe do some more later on if I have time. Maybe I’ll try to do an R&C as well.

15

Very nice. Really wetting my appetite here. I’d like to do an example as well once I get my book.

16
  1. Reflexes were never reduced until the next Exchange, even in BWC!
  2. There’s only Advantage and Disadvantage now. No more ranges or distances at all.
17

Big thanks to you, Shaun, for typing that example and the explanations. This really seems like a more elegant solution that reduced the work load much more than it reduced the realism from the last edition.

18

Whats the run down on having multiple combatants?

19

There are explicit rules for ganging up on someone, and when there are multiple people on either side of a fight it gets split into multiple smaller engagements.

The one thing that is not quite made clear is when A & B are about to fight C & D, and the desired engagements are A -> C, C-> B, B->D D->A, but stuff like that is easily resolved with the person who got the highest engagement roll gets their intent and the rest are made to fit around that.

20

I’m really loving the new Fight! rules, especially the positioning and advantage system.

There’s one thing that I’m not perfectly clear on yet, though: switching weapons(BWG 458-459). It says that you cede advantage to your opponent any time you futz with your weapon, which I understand, but there are a few things I’m not clear on–maybe you guys can give me some insight.

–When does the ceding of advantage happen? Before I make any rolls? Next volley? After the action I switch weapons with, so any of my actions later this volley will have the penalty?
–It mentions ‘choking up on’ a weapon as switching weapons; I presume this means attacking with a haft or pommel or suchlike? So, I cede advantage for doing that?
–Two-weapon fighting confuses me a bit. I’m under the impression that if I attack with the weapon that I didn’t position with, I lose advantage–so, for example, if I have a knife and a sword and I positioned with the sword, I lose advantage if I attack with the knife. In this situation, do I get a penalty to my knife attack, since I’m at sword-range advantage? Is that the penalty that Two-Fisted Fighting training lets you ignore? If not, then what exactly does Two-Fisted Fighting training do?