Greetings and (I will have) questions about combat

Burning Wheel First Reading
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I’m gonna expand on Agnelcow’s response, since they were so thorough.

  1. The Codex (the game’s supplement) also offers some optional maneuvers like, “Counter-Lock” and “Counter-Disarm”. If you do use those, they’re meant to be out in the world where you have to learn them from certain instructors. Block amd Strike is certainly the big one. I once hacked an Infighting (Wing Chun) Training that let the fighter add a shorter range than Hands that they could Engage their opponent at. Other than that, there’s also a distinction between Brawling and Martial Arts: Brawling can be used for basic actions and for Lock and Push, but Martial Arts open up special actions for bare fisted fighting, like Feint. It’s also the skill you test for Throw Person, so that maneuver is kind of locked behind Martial Arts.

  2. Weapon Speed is the amount of consecutive Strikes you can use in a given exchange without having to break up your flow with a different action. Handedness is what the weapon requires–You can wield a longsword two handed, and there are some benefits to doing so.

  3. [quote=“Agnelcow, post:18, topic:23533, full:true”] The base difficulty to hit (what we call Obstacle or “Ob”) is 1, meaning that to score a hit you must roll at least one 5 or 6 on your pool of d6 dice.
    [/quote]

Add 4 to that range, heh.

Rather than a static, Base Obstacle, some actions interact such that you roll against each other. Block vs Strike, for instance. Penalties for being ranged eat up successes before they are applied to the roll. Some Base Obstacles are half the opponent’s Stats, rather than 1. Locking an opponent who’s Striking, for instance.

  1. You can also use Brawling or Martial Arts(I think) instead of Power (BW’s Strength). Doing so can be advantageous at times. There’s also Throw Person. Locks can be maintained and improved over the course of the Fight and have some fun fringe benefits–Like, if you’ve got me Locked, I can’t well Engage you at Spear range, can I? You can also use Lock starting from any range, but you give your opponent the Advantage to do so.
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Eric says, “Hi.” Josh’s pretty much recovered.

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Agh! Can’t believe I got the success threshold wrong. Shouldn’t have been reading ShadowRun books last night, clearly.

All of these clarifications/additions are great, thanks for rounding out stuff I’d missed!

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Ok so ‘Throw’ is a subset of ‘Martial Arts’ - what is the terminology for the two levels of these things? Are there any other actions which come out of ‘Martial Arts’ for example?

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Throw is an Action. Martial Arts is a Skill. You test Skills (or Stats where appropriate) to perform Actions. You can perform most actions unskilled, but there’s a penalty. Some Actions you can’t take without special Training Skills or Traits. In D&D 3.5 terms, it’s a bit like how you can attack with any weapon, but you take -4 if you aren’t proficient with it, you can do special stuff if you have a Feat that allows you to, and you can’t cast spells unless you’re a Wizard (or some such).

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I’m hip man. I get the idea of of a trained vs. an untrained skill. I’m interested in the relationship between Skill and Action. Couple more questions

About how many Skills are available?
About how many Actions are typically derived from each Skill. Is there any overlap?
About how many Skills would a Character typically acquire (post character generation) after say, six sessions of play?
How many at the start (typically or a range)?

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Hey, now. Not all games let you perform an Action that calls for a Skill if you don’t have it. Some do, but assumed that not having the skill bonus is penalty enough! :stuck_out_tongue:

Hmm… The skill list starts on page 253. It ends on page 309. A quick and dirty sampling of three random pages produced an average of 7 Skills listed per page. So… 400ish? That seems a bit high. The best answer, I think, is, “A lot.” In terms of combat, each weapon type has a Skill: Sword, Knives, Spear, Polearm, etc. Brawling and Martial Arts cover hand-to-hand stuff. Brawling is relatively easy to acquire in Chargen, but Martial Arts is sort of locked; you have to specifically gun for it at the expense of something else. Throwing [weapons] is a separate Skill, to quote Luke, “Because I am a bastard.”

I don’t know that thinking about Actions as being derived from Skills is the right way to think of it. Partly why I felt like saying you could do an Action that called for a Skill with a penalty was a clarification worth making. Martial Arts being a key to special unarmed Actions it is kind of a unique case. Typically Actions just call for your Weapon Skill (Or Brawling or Martial Arts if you’re unarmed). Actions are generally more about what tool you’re using than what Skill (though, then you’re gonna be Skilled in that tool or not). So… If you want to take the Shoot Action, you’re gonna use a bow or a crossbow or a gun to do it. If you have a bow, it’s a Bow test. If you don’t have a bow (or similar) you can’t take the Shoot Action. Sorry, I realize a lot of this stuff is probably simple enough to not bear explaining; I feel like maybe there’s some simple misunderstanding I’m having trouble wrapping my head around. :sweat_smile:

The rate at which Characters acquire Skills (and which ones they acquire) varies quite a bit. Skills are acquired (“opened” in the resident lingo), by testing them, primarily. If we’re playing a game that involves a lot of combat, I’m more likely to open combat Skills quickly (Hopefully! gulp). If we’re getting in one Fight per game, and I’m deliberately trying to open Martial Arts, for instance, I can probably log 1 test toward opening it per session. If I’ve got an Aptitude of 6 (probably I do), it takes 6 tests to open the Skill. So, in 6 sessions, I’ll have it open by the end of the last one. But that’s 6 potentially wasted Actions in a fight, which can be quite risky. If we’re playing courtly intrigue, I’ll likely be testing other Skills toward opening. Those penalties for untrained Skills can get pretty nasty, though, so trying to navigate a diversity of problems through unskilled actions to try to gun for opening a Skill up can lead to… A snowballing effect of worsening consequences. You can also take downtime to work toward opening Skills, or find (and pay) an instructor to expedite that process.

It depends on how you build your character. Some options offer more Skills to choose from than others. And you can spend points upping Skills rather than opening new ones. Usually, it’s better to build broad rather than deep. The sample human character in the book has 19 Skills open. The sample Orc character (who tend to have less diverse, harsher options) has 10. 10 to 20 isn’t a bad range, I think. Right now I’m playing a human who was enslaved for a bit; he started with 11, and is notably under-skilled.

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Ok lets drill down on this relationship between Skills and Actions a bit more.

Are there any other Actions which are connected in the way that Martial Arts opens up the option to Throw, or is that unique?

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It’s pretty much unique. I think you need Martial Arts to Feint unarmed, but you can Feint with a sword if you have Sword. Those are the only examples like that that I can think of. I think you can use those Actions by Testing Martial Arts untrained.

Some Training Skills (like Feats) get you access to other Actions. I think the full list of those is Two-Fisted Fighting lets you take the Block and Strike Action (like with a parrying dagger), and lets you split you dice-pool on Strike to make two attacks at once (generally not ideal; Block and Strike is usually the best asset from that training, I think). Shield Training lets you use Block and Strike as well (as opposed to a shield just giving you a bonus to Defensive Actions).

There’s also Savage Attack, which, like Martial Arts, is a Skill that grants access to an Action. In this case, it’s Lock and Strike… But it’s for, like, monsters. The idea, I think, is that a Dragon’s toothy maw can bite you and hold you, hence Lock and Strike. That’s why I’m bringing it up here as kind of a footnote. I’m pretty sure you can’t use Lock and Strike untrained without some kind of horrifying, inhuman anatomy.

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Ok thank you again. I really appreciate all of the detailed explanations, they are very helpful.

So here is where it gets tricky. What if I wanted to introduce a Skill which could unleash some new actions. For example, Kunst Des Fechtens skill, which would then make available the action of doing a Counter-Strike with a sword, i.e. no shield required. And maybe a few other things too but lets start with that one.

Kunst Des Fechtens is a skill you might pick up from training with a fencing master, or possibly by reading it in a book and training with a colleague or two.

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There are two ways Burning Wheel can handle something like that rather easily. A Trait, such as the Crushing Jaws of the great wolves, does similar to what you’re describing here. It lets great wolves use Lock and Strike with their jaws. There is also Training Skill, such as Armor Training or Mounted Combat Training. I’d go with a Training Skill for what you’re describing.

Training Skills are binary. They are learned as any other skill, but the skill itself has no rank, you either have it or you don’t. The ability to act outside the rules and do actions others can’t in the same situation is what that training skill would give you. You’d still need to rely on your skill with the sword to see how well you can make use of that opportunity the other skill gives you!

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You can already Counter-Strike with a Sword. (Or anything else.)

Shield Training allows for Block and Strike with a shield. I can appreciate the idea of letting Block and Strike be a thing with Kennst du Fechten, since there’s such a focus on attacking in a way that also defends in that style. That might be a little odd since Block and Strike is usually narratively two actions, I think: You use your dagger or shield to check the opponent’s blade while your sword stabs them. Those pieces interact more or less independently: You can Feint the Block, or Block the Strike. There are also trade-offs to using a dagger or a shield, so from a game balance perspective, there may be some considerations to be paid.

I think if I were to this aspect of Kennst du Fechten in the game, I might use and Instinct to take the Assess action before a fight to assess my opponent’s guard. Success means that I can read the stance well enough/in time to get a Versetzen off (take the Block and Strike action) for the first Action. Successes over might give me an extra die in my pool; failure might increase the Obstacle for my first action by one (A bad read leaves me distracted.). I don’t know what the Obstacle for this Test might be. Half the opponent’s Weapon Skill, maybe. Honestly, that might not even require special training or a trait in the game; I make use of Assess Instincts pretty often

Whether a Block and Strike Training for KDF would be an inappropriate addition is probably a little beyond my capability, honestly. I’d probably allow it in one of my games, but I’d look to Luke’s or Thor’s input about it being a bad practice in general. I’m a little skittish about hacks and all. :sweat_smile:

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Thanks Gnosego and D Schmitt

I think a Trained Skill sounds like a better fit than a Trait.

It’s “Kunst” des Fechtens by the way, Kunst is the rather unlovely German word for “art”.

What I’m aiming at here is trying to figure out a way I can house-rule my own system, which is based on historical fencing, into Burning Wheel so I could try it out in some test combats.

A single time counter with a sword is a very common technique used by every fencing system that has a sword with some kind of hand protection, though much more common in Europe where the larger quillions existed. Within the KDF there are types of Versetzen which work this way, as well as the Absetzen and some other related techniques. It’s also fundamental to pretty much all of the rapier fencing systems and some involving spears and other pointy weapons. Some single-time counters act as a cut, some as a thrust, some can be either depending on what your opponent does. For purposes of a game like this it’s probably enough to have just the basic idea.

There is also a single-time attack, an attack which binds up your opponents weapon so that they cannot immediately counter or strike back. Again several of the master cuts work this way at least potentially. In my game the way this is handled is that your attack die roll also counts as your defense against the next attack by your targeted opponent*. This would also be covered by KDF.

Finally, another related technique which strings these two together - Mutierin. This is where you make an attack of one type, say a cut, and this is parried, so without hesitating you transition the cut into another type of attack, like a thrust. This seems like it could work with your scripted combat system.

As for how to balance it, in my game it basically requires a bit more investment of your resources in terms of what I think here you would call actions to do a Versetzen, an Absetzen or Mesiterhau, on top of the requirement to have done some training so that you know how to do it to begin with, as these techniques are somewhat counter-intuitive and must be trained.

I am trying to understand more of the mechanics of combat in BW so I can determine how best to fit this in, I am starting to get a basic idea thanks to your helpful descriptions and comments, and I am going to track down my BW books and see if I can gain some further insight.

Thanks again so far, and for your ongoing patience with me,

J

  • This reminded me of a question I had. When you are doing your script, how do you handle multiple opponents? “Round 1 Block person A, Round 2 Strike person B”? Or can you put any Boolean logic into it? “Round 1 Block anyone who attacks me,” or “Round 2 strike person B if I’m not being attacked by A”
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This sounds mechanically somewhat like an expansion of the existing Great Strike, which takes two actions rather than one to complete but gives a bonus to damage or penetration; so, that might be a good rule to build from if you want to fit various complex effects into the existing system with the least shift in balance.

It’s simpler than that: you script what sort of action you are doing at the start of the round, but you choose the target when you actually undertake it.

For example, you script a Block for Volley 2 Action 1; when V2A1 is declared, two enemies declare an attack and one enemy declares the second half of a great strike; each of the enemies declares who they are directing their attack against, resulting in one ordinary attack and one great strike aimed at you; you then choose which of those two enemies to use your Block against; then the dice are rolled.

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It’s simpler than that: you script what sort of action you are doing at the start of the round, but you choose the target when you actually undertake it.

For example, you script a Block for Volley 2 Action 1; when V2A1 is declared, two enemies declare an attack and one enemy declares the second half of a great strike; each of the enemies declares who they are directing their attack against, resulting in one ordinary attack and one great strike aimed at you; you then choose which of those two enemies to use your Block against; then the dice are rolled.

Makes sense, and the more I learn about this system the more elegant it seems to be.

With regard to the “single time counter” - these are all fairly common fencing or fighting moves which I think should fit into BW pretty easily. In real life they would be available to people who had spent some time training to fight and learning under a master. This could include a wide range of people, knights obviously, and princes, but also burghers, university students, professional soldiers and sailors, merchants, even apparently Friars and their lady friends. We seem to find people of all estates involved in this.

What I have in my game is a system of these techniques which allows people to layer on a bit more dynamism into the combat experience of their game. I’m just trying to figure out where to fit some of this into BW rules. Just to see if it can fit. So far it seems like it should be able to.

From what I understand of Great Strike (is this is a Training Skill or a Trait or an Action?) is not quite the same thing - the idea in this specific example would be to Defend and Attack in the same Action. There could be balance issues - if everyone had it, why ever just parry?- but for balance I usually look to real life. I know how to do single-time counters, but when I pull one off successfully in a fight it’s rare enough that I’m pretty happy about it. The limiting factor is basically skill and tempo - how well you can read your opponent and how quickly you can decide to do a “device” as these things are called in the fencing manuals. Only someone who has done a good bit of training can do it “at speed”, and only if they are somewhat on top of their game. It also helps if your opponents are less experienced. Otherwise, you will just parry.

So these real life factors can be the inspiration for how to fit it into the rules, since BW combat rules seem to have a pretty good grounding in common sense. The level of abstraction also seems to be pretty close, though that is another thing to be careful about.

J

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Great Strike is an action.

Mechanically, it takes two actions to perform (only one of which counts toward the number of attacks one can do a round), requires both hands, bypasses the Block action, and grants a bonus to either damage or armour penetration.

Narratively, it represents double-handed overhead strikes, half-sword techniques, taking a breath extra so you can aim for a vulnerability in the armour, or other similar techniques that trade speed for power/precision.

So, the advantage is a “better” hit. The disadvantage is you have to use both hands (so, for example, if you are fighting sword-and-off-hand-dagger, you have to drop the dagger), and you spend an action standing there doing nothing (giving any opponent within range an easy chance if they have an attack for that action). Thus, whether to script an ordinary Strike or a Great Strike as the “offensive” part of your approach is situational.

I realise it isn’t an identical case to defend-and-attack as a single technique; my suggestion was that it’s a good benchmark for how BW balances the advantage and disadvantage of a “better” attack. Getting to attack if the parry works is clearly an advantage, so as you say, there has to be a reason why people don’t always use it if they can: for example, instead of getting to “just parry” if they don’t read it right, might the parry be less effective than an scripted block if it doesn’t stop the whole attack?

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Makes sense. In the other systems I have adapted these extra options to, it is limited in two ways:

A) It is a trained skill which must be acquired, everyone above a certain threshold of experience might start with a couple of them, but nobody has all of them. So you will tailor your own unique skills to the weapons you want to use and to the personal traits you have. Like if you were small and thin, you might emphasize skills and weapons which allow you to use finesse instead of raw strength.

B) It requires an investment in terms of using up more of your options - instead of doing 4 things you might only be able to do 3, as this type of option takes up two of them.

C) It may also be a gamble so that it is a riskier option - if it works it pays off well, if it fails you could be in a worse position than you started in. So you shouldn’t risk it unless you have sufficient skill in whatever else constitutes fighting ability.

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Is there a mechanism for Feinting in BW?

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Sounds good, @CodexIntegrum.

One thing that really interests me with conflict in BW is the way the broader picture affects things: because you script in advance, you can gain a real advantage if you can predict your opponent’s probable actions; so, there’s actually real advantage in studying your opponent before a fight and so forth.

There is: page 450 of the main rule book. It does the same damage as an ordinary Strike has different Obstacles against the various actions your opponent might be taking; so it’s better at overcoming defences but doesn’t work against most other actions.

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For a single weapon, this is covered by the Counterstrike action. If you have the Shield Training or Two-Fisted Fighting Training skill, you can also use Block & Strike. Both of those actions are a defense and attack in the same action.