I feel lied to.

Hirram’s got it on the ball. I’ve run several small campaigns of BW now (and of its sibling game, Burning Empires) and the game isn’t about “do the characters have enough X to balance against Y” but more like “You’ve got X; you think Y and Z - what do you DO about that? Huh? How about NOW?”

As GM, this is a very different game than most others. Really. For example, as already noted, you don’t come up with a “plot” per se, and thus, there are no set number of encounters that have to happen. This is also because advancement depends on risk in BW - characters have to hit certain risky Obstacles to advance their skill and stats, which means, naturally, they’re going to have to enter risky situations. It would be impossible for a gamemaster to set up a bunch of “encounters” that test the range of skills a PC has just to be able to level them up eventually. You throw things at their Beliefs and see where they jump; the players themselves will suggest the “encounters” as they maneuver both to follow their Beliefs as well as level up their skills (at least, my players have in the past). If they really care about X thing, they’ll eventually set up, all by themselves, an encounter that’ll really test their abilities.

I’ll give an example. In my game of Burning Empires, one of my PCs was the Lord Steward of the planet; it meant, in essence, he was the leader of the world. All sorts of resources at his disposal. But he had a bastard son, one he loved and wanted to do right by despite the feudal-like rules of society (he had a Belief about it). His former lover (the son’s mother) was the High Priestess of the local religion. She was trying to influence the son away from him, so he decided to enter a Duel of Wits to win his son’s trust and respect. He had, I should note, no skills whatsoever for the Duel of Wits. Not even one. But it was important to him, so he went for it (and for the record, won it, based on some Artha spent and some luck). A very tense encounter! And I hadn’t a clue it was going to happen. All I did as GM was tell him “The High Priestess was seen having brunch with your son yesterday at blah blah expensive restaurant”. That was it. That was enough.

For me, GMing BW games is MUCH more satisfying than “create encounter, see how many resources players expend, move to next encounter.” Much, much more.

First, you mention the need for a character burner. There is one. It’s not perfect, but it’s pretty good.

Second, balance. There isn’t any. Instead, as the GM you need to provide the opposition that the story needs. If the PCs need to escape from jail, you make that possible. You give them a guard who’s sympathetic, or gullible, or willing to accept a bribe. Or you give them some way to avoid imprisonment in the first place. If, instead, the PCs’ Beliefs are best pressed by having them sentenced to a year of hard labor, you can make it very hard for them to escape. You build the story the way it should be. Balance is solely in the interest of having things be fun and the story you want. You could run a game where the PCs are all political prisoners trying to escape together, and then escape could be hundreds of rolls over dozens of sessions. You could run a game in which they’re imprisoned and it’s a session to escape, with a few rolls at high Ob, and failure might mean they get away with immediate pursuit, injuries, and without supplies. You could have imprisonment be a minor hurdle that they escape with an Ob 3 test of some sort to come up with improvised lockpicks and an Ob 2 lockpick test (that’s for a decent lock!) to get out. It’s all about what you want to make the game about and what fits the Beliefs.

This isn’t experience. This should be fairly obvious. You make the consequences of failure so that the story is still good. You make the Obs fit with the story you want—low if the players are going to be highly successful, high if life is very rough, and the skills give guidelines. You don’t pull out impossibly tough opposition and jerkass consequences of failure—and these are both pretty obvious. Don’t go for realism unless that’s what you want in the game. Go for genre-ism. Fit the genre you want to play.

For Fight, try a few sample fights. It’s very hard to kill even without spending Persona unless characters have sky-high skills and Power. Most combat ends with failed Steel tests or a slew of relatively small wounds that incapacitate but don’t kill. It’s not nearly as lethal as it looks.

If you want solid Ob guidelines… Ob 1 is easy. Ob 2 is an everyday task with a chance of failure. Ob 3 is something moderately hard even for someone skilled. Ob 4 is very hard. Any higher and you’re demanding help, FoRKs, and artha. 2-3 is the sweet spot for most tests, I think.

Another point worth bringing up is that lifepaths cover a massive range of characters. You can play the Etharch of the Elves—a lord of more than mortal caliber with immense resources at his disposal. You can play a prince or duke. You can play a bishop of the Church or a merchant with gobs of money. Or you can play a hard-bitten soldier in the ranks, and ordinary sailor, a wandering tinker, or a Dwarf craftsman. Or you can play a flea-bitten beggar, a desperate cutpurse, a simple clod of a peasant, or a broken man who’s been exiled, enslaved, and tortured. These characters are not equal, and they probably don’t belong in the same game. The world and situation you set up with the players so they know what characters to create matters! For A Game of Thrones they’re likely to play nobles and knights. For a game of peasants fending off orcs they’ll be peasants and villagers. A mercenary game might be full of soldiers and camp followers. You could play a game about a rise to financial power in which characters are magnates and merchants who deal in coin and whose power is that of the purse—and then pit them against nobles with authority but no actual gold to back it up! Make sure the scope of the characters matches the game you want.

Another point that could be made–go back and figure out what assumptions you’re bringing in from previous RPGs. Burning Wheel flat-out ignores many of them as non-issues. If you play it as written, it actually works out fairly well. Try it in the field, and it turns out that most of 'em aren’t big deals after all.

Hey guys, we appreciate that you’re trying to be helpful, but let’s not dog-pile. No more posting to this threat until yarnperson returns to ask for more advice.

Thanks again for all the advice. Sorry, I couldn’t get back to you sooner, but my son refuses to let me “read boring computer stuff” when there is some Mario he needs help with.
I feel it would only be justified, if I went back through the 20+ comments I’ve received, make some direct quotes and respond to each with a personal thanks, or a follow up question. But, unfortunately, I’m a little too time constrained at the moment. So let me paraphrase. And please, be gentle, I mean no offence. And I truly want to love this system.

  1. There is no such thing as balance because Artha should make up for any short comings or the players should just plain know better.
  2. NPCs should be based on the Rogue’s Gallery in the back of the book, in accordance with their profession and expertise.
  3. It’s up to the player to not get themselves killed, unless they’re willing to die for their BITs; in which case, all the more powerful the story.
  4. It’s up to the GM to figure ways to keep the story moving, even if the characters keep failing. Come up with non-dead ends they can follow, even as they get frustrated that they can’t pick locks, convert people to their cause, take on an army, or bake a pretty cake.
  5. Stop whining you number crunching, D&D playing, computer loving, n00b, and really give it an actual chance before you complain.

I’ll try to get back with some more specific questions and thanks soon.
Thank you all. Your passion, if nothing else, is a credit to the joy the Wheel has given you.

As I said, many people deserve a direct thanks. In particular Kubali.

Thank you. Exactly what I was asking. I wanted to make sure you know that your help is appreciated, before I go to bed for the night.

I think it’s more that the story keeps moving naturally regardless of whether the PCs succeed or fail, but it may not be the story you thought it was in the beginning. Failure can be pretty potent stuff in storytelling.

So you started out thinking you were telling the story of how a plucky young man from the village saves his beloved from being forced to marry Prince Humperdink, but you failed some rolls and now she’s married to him. Worse, when you finally slipped into the castle to rescue her, she defeated you in a duel of wits with the premise, “We must respect the holy bonds of my marriage to the prince” and now you can’t even cuckold the prince! Awesome story, now where does it go? Maybe the prince catches you in her bedchamber and assumes the worst, outlawing you and locking her away somewhere. Maybe the rebels approach you, seeing your bitterness, and try to persuade you to participate in their assassination plan. Maybe your former lover convinces the prince to offer you a high position in his court or a bishopric. All sorts of awesome can roll out of your failure to stop the wedding, but it’s not the story you thought you were telling when it started.

Of course, the same thing could happen in D&D, but it’s not an assumption of the system there. Very often the DM would be tempted to fudge a few rolls or the timing of some events to make sure that the PCs get to come crashing into the chapel just before the bride says “I do.” In BW, though, there would likely be a roll somewhere where the GM said something like, "Okay, you’re going to fight your way through the guards, then, right? Roll Sword against the guards’ Spear. If you fail, the guards will hold you in the courtyard long enough for the Bishop to complete the ceremony.

BW tells you specifically that players can fail and that the failures should drive the story in new directions rather than just stopping it dead. Since playing BW, though, I’ve started applying that philosophy in other games, and I think it’s made my other games better.

Speaking of balance:

In the very first session of my campaign I let my two players’ 3LP characters face 5 wolves… =)
I think I used stats I found on the wiki or here on the forum.

It went well! The wolves did not work together as a group, and when one was seriously injured they started fleeing, our heroes killed most of them. But I do believe my boyfriend was a little shaken afterwards. He did not think they would have survived the encounter, had the wolves been a little more experienced. =)

Although we’ve mentioned that GM’s don’t spend much time planning adventures, etc–it’s mostly a reaction to what the PC’s do and the dice rolls–this is a place where GM skill really does come into play. A good GM has to always be alert for what the Intent truly is. It’s rarely just “pick the lock”, although that might be what the player says. A GM has to realize that they really want to get into the building undetected–which vastly changes the possibilities of a failed roll. So instead of a failed roll meaning “you can’t pick the lock” it might mean “you pick the lock, but your clumsy attempts attract the attention of a town guardsman, who comes around the corner to investigate just as you’re tucking your picks away and the door is swinging open. What do you do?”

While that is true the game states that intents are explicitly stated. If you don’t know the true intent then you ask.

True. But I think if a player says “my intent is to pick the lock” the GM has to look at that and realize that maybe there’s more to it than that, rather than just say “OK, test Lockpick, Ob2.”

How I plan my encounters:
1.) I pull out the PC’s sheets for reference and refresh myself on their Beliefs and what happened in the previous session.
2.) Open up FreeMind (free mind mapping software) to start brainstorming.
3.) Imagine the implied end results of a particular Belief, and then dream up potential roadblocks between here and there. Who or what would oppose this character in achieving his Beliefs?
4.) For each roadblock, I jot down an appropriate Test. I guess this is where “game balance” comes into play, but I consider the fiction first and foremost. Sometimes I make it Ob 6+ because it opens up more avenues for Failure and will drive the story in an interesting direction. Or the PC’s will burn a bunch of Artha and do something seriously badass to overcome that high obstacle. Either way it’s cool :slight_smile:
5.) Create sub-nodes for each roadblock with different ideas for Failure (twists & complications just like Mouse Guard). I’m not trying to pre-plan here, just priming my imagination so I don’t have to come up with something on the spot.
6.) Look over my branches and decide if I need to burn up any characters or print out some stock NPCs for opposition.

In the end, I usually have a little mind map with 4 or 5 main branches, and 1 or 2 sub-branches spawning out from Failures.

The rest is just winging it and following the players’ lead.

How do I not kill a party with a combat system so fatal?
It really isn’t. Any wound beyond Superficial, and you’re out of the fight. I’ve played quite a few games and the only outright fatality was caused by a crossbow and rolling a B16 wound if I recall correctly. That was early on in my group’s play experience, and we all learned a valuable lesson not to fuck around with crossbows.

1) There is no such thing as balance because Artha should make up for any short comings or the players should just plain know better.
The system makes no assumptions about balance. Different stocks aren’t equally powerful. Different lifepaths aren’t going to result in equal characters. Some choices are mechanically better. You can milk some of that for artha, but that’s not a source of balance. If you want a balanced party you have to get the players to make one. On the other hand, BW is much less balance-reliant than, say, D&D. It’s driven by Beliefs, not stats, and everyone has the same number of those. A knight may be great in a Fihjt, but when you’re tromping through the wilderness the lowly woodcutter may have the survival skills you need. It’s in part the GM’s job to figure out what different characters excel at and give everyone a chance to shine—but that’s part of many games.

2) NPCs should be based on the Rogue’s Gallery in the back of the book, in accordance with their profession and expertise.
Maybe if you need full stats. Most NPCs can be made on the fly. B2 for things they’re awful at, B3 for what they’re okay at, B4 for what they’re pretty good at, B5 if they’re quite skilled. Roughly that. You’ll get a sense of numbers to make up in play. Or you can do it like me and make NPCs act as obstacles. A slightly obstructive bureaucrat might be Ob 2 on social checks, a run of the mill town guard Ob 3 for combat, the sentries at a camp Ob 4 for sneaking, the Orc champion Ob 5 for any way of circumventing him, and so on.

3) It’s up to the player to not get themselves killed, unless they’re willing to die for their BITs; in which case, all the more powerful the story.
Again, not quite. Of course it’s up to players not to make suicidal choices, but it’s up to the GM not to make death a possibility unless it should be. Failure consequences are whatever you want; don’t make it death unless it’s necessary. Fight will rarely result in kills; don’t throw overwhelming opposition with B6 Power and weapon skills unless there’s compelling reason to do so. In the course of normal BW there won’t be constant Fights and most Fights cannot be lethal. Enemies can execute PCs if they’ve won, but you don’t have to make them do so. Make a story in which they wouldn’t, then don’t.

4) It’s up to the GM to figure ways to keep the story moving, even if the characters keep failing. Come up with non-dead ends they can follow, even as they get frustrated that they can’t pick locks, convert people to their cause, take on an army, or bake a pretty cake.
Well covered already. It’s critical that failure is a failure of intent, not necessarily of task. I in particular like to tailor it to the characters’ skills and lifepaths. You don’t want to pick a lock, you want to pick a lock for a reason. To get into the castle, yes, but you don’t just want that, you want to get in for a reason. BW rolls cover much more than rolls in other games.

“I want to defeat these Orcs so I can rescue the princess!”

For a peasant with B2 Sword, I might say that failure means taking serious injuries in the course of victory (or defeat). For a knight with B5 Sword, failure might mean dispatching the Orcs too slowly to reach the princess before she is taken to another castle.

For Persuasion, you may be convincing someone that the king has fallen to evil so that he will send his soldiers to join the rebellion. A success gets you that intent. A failure might still convince him to do so, but he’s not willing to fully fund and equip them. Now you have another problem on your hands—logistics. Or he says sure and then secretly reports you to the king. Or he’s willing, but only if you can get better evidence of the king’s evil.

5) Stop whining you number crunching, D&D playing, computer loving, n00b, and really give it an actual chance before you complain.
Giving it a chance will set some of your concerns to rest, but it’s good to figure this out in advance because BW is easy to screw up out of the gate and the less you do that the better the game will be.

One major point that I think needs repeating: intent and task in BW cover much bigger swaths of activity (and that’s part of Let It Ride). If you want to assassinate someone, you could roll Stealthy to sneak to their bedroom, or you could use Lockpick to break in, or you could use Intimidation and bribes to cow the guards into letting you do your bloody work. As soon as the GM agrees to the intent and task, you roll and that’s it. That lockpick roll will be enough to get past all obstacles and kill the target because that’s the intent. A failure roll could well mean you pick the lock but the guards are on alert—the failure isn’t always exactly linked to the task, although it should be most of the time. If you want to focus on an activity, make the players break down the intent into sub-intents. (That’s part of saying no, actually, and why you can’t use Persuasion to get a king to give you his throne. That’s material for a campaign, not a single roll—unless you’re okay with a single roll, in which case go ahead!)

My take on fights:

It’s better if you don’t use the Fight mechanics until you feel used to the game. For combat, just ask for simple tests as usual. (I would prefer not to use bloody versus tests at first, except when is a matter of life and death.) If a spider attacks a character in the woods, a simple Speed test will do. If the player fails the test, the character is trapped in the spider’s net. Test Power to break free. If he fails, the spider drags him to itself, trying to stab his fangs on him. He tries to draw his sword. Agility or Sword test. Fail? He loses the sword, which is left behind. When the spider catches him, ask for a versus test. If the spider wins, give the character a wound or something. And then the fights goes on or he tries to persuade the spider not to feed on him or whatever. A good oportunity to learn the Duel of Wits mechanics.

Of course, that’s when you want to zoom in on the details of a fight. Usually, you can do a lot of fights with a simple versus test, just one test for fight. If the player wins, the enemy is dead or run away or whatever. If the enemy wins, something awful for the character but exciting for you and for the other players happens: the character is taken prisoner, or seriously injured, even presumed dead, maybe he wins the fight and kills his enemy but his NPC teammates think it was an unnecessary act of cruelty (1D infamous reputation or something), etc.

The Fight sub-system is only for the Big Fight, a fight for the life of your friends, for the destiny of a kingdom, a fight of conviction and belief. And of course the character could die! That’s the price of it. Are you willing to fight for what you believe? Are you willing to give your own life for this? This can’t be simulated. Must be a real choice for the player. And then one must face the consequences of his own actions. (The game makes sure you have real consequences for the decisions you make.)

slightly off topic, but yarnperson, that is one great whopper of a subject line - good marketing to get us to look at this thread. i have faith you’ll find a way to get the game to work for you. as evident from all the above responses, it took us all some serious perseverance. a lot of frustrating sessions, failed starts, and trial and error until we got it… but then… isn’t everything worth doing a bit of a challenge?

My experience is the opposite: In other RPGs, the prison is often a plot device for the GM to tell his story. One GM in particular likes to start off his campaigns by having us imprisoned, not letting us escape until he feels sure that we will follow his plot / hunt down the bad guy / save the child / whatever.

“But I’m the rogue. I want to pick the lock.”
“You have nothing to pick it with.”
“Maybe I have a nail hidden in my shoe.”
“No, they searched you before you were put in the cell.”
“You said we have a barrel of water. I scratch it until I get a chip of wood.”
“No use, and even if you did have a tool, there’s a magical barrier on the door.”
Etc.

My wish for any game, not just BW, is that if the GM has a story to tell, and if that story can only have one or two possible outcomes, then please just tell the story and then start the game.

The difference to Burning Wheel is the player’s level of choice. We’re not in jail because the GM has decided to keep us from messing up his story. We’re there because it was a logical result of a story we’re developing together.

“If you fail the sneak test, you will get arrested and you must spend three weeks in jail.”
“Well, I choose to take the chance anyway. And if I do end up in jail, maybe I can do a circles test to meet a person there who knows about…”

I have some thoughts about this one as well…

What if the “say yes” guideline is not there to force the GM to let the players have what they want, but rather to challenge the GM about what stories can be told?
And does it really sound ridiculous for a human farmer to end up as the king of an elven kingdom? It is not ‘realistic’ in the ‘real world’ sense, but in the tradition of epic legends and traditional fairy tales I think it fits right in. Stardust is a great example. Thumbelina. Puss in boots. Of course, the path for a 2LP human will be long and windy.

“I walk up to the elven king and ask him for his kingdom.”
“You never mentioned that you wanted it before.”
“Well, I do now.”
“You do understand that it is a big thing you’re asking? First you should change one of your beliefs.” (readjusting GM brain while player is pondering)
“Done.”
“OK, so now the story of your character is no longer about the quest to kill the dreaded pirate Burningbeard and becoming a pirate captain. Instead you turn towards becoming the king of an enchanted elven realm.”
“Can I talk to him now?”
“You must gain an audience with him, and you know that the only way for a human to speak with any noble elf in Goldenwoods is to become an Elf Friend.”
“How do I do that?”
“You don’t know. How do you go about finding it out?”

As a GM you can make the path to the stated goal as long as you want, and still have said ‘yes’. And quite honestly, it’s a lot of fun to see what people come up with. It is fun to create NPCs and their agendas in response to PC choices. I don’t know why all rpg systems don’t encourage GMs to think this way.

BTW, I also agree with the others that as a GM you should be comfortable with saying ‘no’.

Well, if you want to love the system, you really need to unlearn all the concept you know about RPG’s in general. BW is a very different system from any other games i played before. Sorry if i am cranky on this but, instead of giving people advice about what it should be and how it should be written, just take your time, do not make any conclusion yet, run “the sword” and keep reading advice on this forum. I start my first campain 2 years ago and i am still on the learning curve. Believe me, it takes time! This game is not about “Maths and Encounters”! It is someting else, you just have to open your mind!

Saw through that, eh? You’re too smart for me.

Thanks again for all pointers, advice, and anecdotes. Most are quite useful. Though, people keep advising me on something that I felt was obvious on the first read through. Something, that I suppose is my fault for not explaining what exactally I was looking for.
I’ve used the word “Balance” which… I’m starting to feel is a dirty word around here. The thing that has been posed to me by several people is how characters are not balanced when compared to other characters. It’s rare to find a game where this is true, but no more so than this game. A village idiot is obviously not going to be able to stand up to a squire in a fight.
If the players want to make a villager, mining engineer, apiarist, clothes dyer, name him Steve, and ask for a trait of unusually square head, that’s his bag. As long as Steve has invested interest in what’s going on, and wants to help in anyway he can, I see no reason that I should stop him, even when there’s a Barron, a sword singer, and an Axe Bearer in the group.
My questions on balance are more about, what players should roughly be able to handle. I’ve luckily got some good guidelines for this, but I’ll take you on a little trip I took today in my free time, if you choose to come with me. Warning, this is not for the weak of heart.
A question I constantly asked is, “How do I NOT kill my party?”
The answer I got was, “That’s really hard to do.”
So I came up with some numbers.
Character 1: 3LP Squire
Relevant stats and gear:
Sword, Light Mail, Shield, B5 Pow, B5 Sword, MW 10
NPC 1: Orc capitain
Run of the mill Spear, Low quality Leathers, B5 Pow, B5 Spear, MW 10
Bloody Vs.
Squire has 4D defense, and 6D attack. Moves one die over for 5 and 5.
Orc, has 2D defense and 7D attack. Moves two dice over for 4 and 5.
Squire Damage = I=4, M=8, S=12, add 2
Orc Damage = I=3, M=7, S=10, add 2
Chance the orc misses: 62.3%
Chance of Squire getting hit for I: 20.51%
Chance of Squire getting hit for M: 16.11%
Chance of Squire getting hit for S(Instant kill): 1.07%

Enter a new challenger, (Actually player character in group)
Peasent, Banner man, Court Jester
Superior Throwing Knives, Reinforced leather, B3 Pow, B4 Knives, MW B9
Fool has 2D defense and 5D Attack, Moves one over to have 3 and 4

Chance the orc misses, 36.34%
Chance for Fool getting hit for I: 27.34%
Chance for Fool getting hit for M(Knocked Out): 32.82%
Chance for Fool getting hit for S(Instant Kill): 3.52%

Yeah… the math is looking that way. Thanks for the input.