Good to know Luke, thanks for the feedback. I’m trying to anticipate an elegant yet grim solution, but got nothing so far.
I’m excited to see what you come up with. Using Traits to gain checks was the thing that my players struggled with most.
From what little experience I have with Torchbearer (3 game sessions), it seems to me the idea of letting your players choose the rank 2 or 3 benefit (before rolling) is a good way to go. Or, just give them an automatic +1s whenever invoking the trait. So far I haven’t seem anything to indicate this would be game-breaking.
In fact, after 23 years of running various RPG games, I’ve learned that it NEVER matters how powerful the PCs get (so long as they are relatively equal in power), because as GM I have total control in increasing the difficulty to keep pace with their power. I say, do whatever seems most fun for your group, and balance the game as needed.
We’re not changing this in any respect. I’m only talking about L2 and L3 traits.
I hate it already! 
(Naw, this is interesting, actually. I wish I had some feedback on the usefulness of Level 3 traits in practice.)
Yeah, this is pretty much how we’ve house-ruled it at our table for the time being.
From a design standpoint, I wonder if Thor or Luke could answer if level 3 traits are intended to be absolutely better than level 2 traits. The progression implies that they are (3>2), but I could see an argument that becoming even more Thoughtful, Foolhardy, or whatever isn’t necessarily more beneficial to a character, and maybe level 3 traits are just supposed to grant a different sort of bonus as you begin to personify the trait.
Not to speak for Luke or Thor, but I think people are underselling how good a level 3 trait is. It’s true that a level 2 trait will have more opportunities to be used, but the outcome is still left to chance. Level 3 traits, while situational, work 100% of the time they are invoked.
L3 traits are there for you when you need them!
Another thing to consider, though, in light of Rewards… Let’s say you have an L3 trait and an L2 or L1 trait. In conjunction with a Fate point, would you try to use your L2 or L1 trait to take a +1D (gambling that you’ll get a 6 for exploding) or would you go ahead and try to play your L3 trait for that +1s?
You’ve got a slightly-better chance of getting a 6 by adding that one extra die. You going to take it?
The key to realize is that +1s only applies to versus tests, and only if the test is already successful or a tie. +1D applies to every test. It’s equivalent to a persona point. Level 3 traits do not just grant you a free success on any test. If they did, that would clearly be better.
Well, not just versus tests. It would also apply to independent tests in a conflict.
I think that’s the one issue I have with it. That +1s is really only meaningful in a conflict. If I’m remembering correctly, there’s no time outside of a conflict that margin of success matters, right? If so, then level 3 traits are only really useful in conflicts, whereas that +1D from a level 2 trait is useful in any test.
They also grant you a +1s on ob0 tests, such as your disposition roll and when your Attack beats a Feint, or on independent tests. L3 traits are conflict oriented and very powerful in that way.
I don’t think anyone is making that claim. When you invoke a level three trait, success is automatic. The issue is how often you can invoke them, whereas level 2 traits can be applied to more rolls, the outcome is left to chance.
As others have pointed out, they are definitely conflict-oriented.
The +1s bonus is huge for tie-breaking in single opposed tests (Haggler, Scout, Fighter, Criminal, etc.)
A bit further, you’ll usually have more than one trait at your disposal. Having both an L3 and an L2 trait would be something to work towards, rather than just having L2 traits across the board.
So your L2 trait gets replaced with an L3? Try to shoot for leveling up one of those underused L1 traits! This is asking you to play your character in a more dynamic way, rather than leaning on that L2 crutch…
Yeah, I get all that, and those are all good points. Our game doesn’t feature many conflicts or versus tests for whatever reason, so when I got the level 3 trait, it felt anticlimactic. That’s all I was pointing out. In a game chock full of conflicts I’m sure my impression would have been different.
Lordpib’s game: it’s all Cook tests, all the time.
Our resident orc berserker cook would love that game.
Just wondering if the play testing Luke mentioned earlier in the thread resulted in anything?
Yup. Completely fixed. We’re confident that you’re not going to like the solution. 
I’ll take that bet 
. Looking forward to seeing it.