Lock vs. Counterstrike

Huh. Are we saying the scripting reference PDFs are right and p. 450 is wrong, or the other way around? Sorry if I’m being slow.

I’ve just been using the sheets for simplicity’s sake - and so everybody can have a copy.

I don’t know for sure, but my money is on the scripting reference being correct.

Hm… and I thought Great Strike bypassed Block totally. As in, if you script a Block against a Great Strike you are toast.

Anyone from BWHQ chime in as to whether we should use matrix or book? I’m hoping it’s the book, as the PDF is easy to edit and my book is forever!

The book is your source for all things correct.

Except in Great Strike v Block, right?

The errata list is your source for all things incorrect.

How does Lock vs. Disarm work?

Going by the book, it looks as if there’s two tests - the Lock is resolved with a versus Power test, and the Disarmer attempts to use his weapon skill against Ob = locker’s (weapon?) skill. Going by the matrix, it’s just a versus Power test.

In that case, how should we resolve Lock against Throw? Page 448 says its a standard test, and Page 450 says Versus.

The fight matrix confuses things even further:

Lock vs Throw
Std Pow Test:
Ob = ½Pow

Throw vs Lock
Std Skill Test:
Ob = ½Spd

I am thoroughly confused. Many tables in the book seem to contradict each other and the fight matrix sometimes says something wholly different.

I’ve put all of these scenarios (there are 12) in the errata, I’m going to mark the correct answers as they come.

I love Burning Wheel, but… Wow… 12? In one of the most critical areas of the book?

Ouch.

Edit to say: Luckily, this is easily correctable with a new and officially updated Fight! matrix.

Looking at your chart, the left-hand column (the book) seems clearly correct in all instances except the GS vs Block one (and even then it’s correct if the blocker has a shield). There seems to be an error in your chart though - Counterstrike vs Push on p. 444 is listed as vs. Pow, not as 1/2 Pow. Using vs. Pow clearly makes the most sense in context. Why on earth would you test your defensive CS dice against 1/2 Pow or 1/2 Spd??

I was very relieved to look at the page and see that it’s the Fight Matrix that had the sloppiness and not the book - I don’t want to go marking up my book with errata! Writing all over the Fight matrix is fine, though.

Throw vs. Lock seems like it should be resolved in the same way as Push vs. Lock or Charge vs. Lock (i.e. independent tests. If you both win, then you’re on the ground but you’ve got hold of your opponent too) - I just see Push, Charge, and Throw as similar actions with similar outcomes (you on your ass in the dirt). But it would be nice to have an official ruling since I could see the argument for it going the other way as well.

I’ve updated the fight sheets and reupped them to the store front. I’d upload them to the wiki, but the wiki hates me even more than the store does.
http://www.burningempires.com/store/index.php/free-pdfs/burning-wheel-gold-play-sheet-pdfs.html

I downloaded them earlier in the week in the hopes they’d been updated. Now, I’ll do that again. Thanks Luke.

Thanks!

Luke, thanks so much for making a new matrix, that helps tremendously.

  1. Magic Actions receiving a Charge (p. 452) says Charge needs Ob=1/2 Spd, but the matrix says 1/2 For. I’m sure the book is correct here. (I caught this error, but misreported it as a Charge vs. Charge problem, sorry.)

  2. I think there are four situations where the r11 matrix was correct, not the book.

The reason I think the book is wrong is because one combatant is rolling a versus test while the other is told to use an independent test.

Disarm vs. Lock

Book seems contradictory, saying:
Disarm: Skill
Lock: vs. Skill

r11 Matrix looked better, it said:
Lock: Pow vs. Skill
Disarm: Skill vs. Pow

r13 Matrix now matches the book.

Throw vs. Block

Book seems contradictory, saying:
Block: -
Throw: Skill vs. Skill

r11 Matrix looked better, it said:
Block: -
Throw: Ob=Skill

r13 Matrix now matches the book.

Throw vs. Counterstrike

Book seems contradictory, saying:
Throw: vs. Skill
Counterstrike: -

r11 Matrix: (this looks good)
Throw: Ob=Skill
Counterstrike: -

r13 matrix now matches the book

Throw vs. Lock

Book seems contradictory, saying:
Throw: vs Pow
Lock: 1/2 Pow

r11 matrix: (this looks good)
Throw: 1/2 Spd
Lock: 1/2 Pow

r13 matrix now matches the book

r13 seems right here, as you are disarming versus their weapon skill, not the Pow they are using to get a lock on you.

A throw would never work against a skilled opponent with Ob=Skill, but that is probably the point of scripting a block versus a throw. I think a throw versus a block, should be Vs Skill. Makes more sense to me. I’ll bow to Lukes superior grappling knowledge though.

I guess the intent is that you loose the counterstrike even if you are not thrown. Since the defence portion of the CS is Vs Skill, it lends credence to the Vs Skill for throw vs block actions too.

I’m flying blind here, I know it’s hard to throw some bastard who has a lock on you, but I’m not sure how hard it is to lock someone who is trying to throw you.

Over all, I’d say I was pretty happy with these outcomes and look forward to implementing them on Thursday when my PC dies horribly.

I think you misunderstand, Durand Durand - I’m not concerned with the rationale for why it would involve this or that stat or skill, merely pointing out that the instructions themselves seem self-contradictory. Look at Throw vs. Block. The book says the Blocker doesn’t test at all, except that they participate in a versus test. What does that mean?

It might be intended to mean that the blocker cannot gain the benefit of extra successes.

I’d like to hear from BWHQ about what’s intended here.