Mass Combat

Burning Wheel Modifications, Hacks and Expansions
41

Seeing in the dark is certainly an advantage, and should be folded into disposition, but +3s might be a bit hefty.

Their terrifying nature and toughness should be the reason why they get the ‘very heavy troops’ advantage.

Don’t let NPCs on the PC’s side role. The system is designed so that the PCs actions are representative of the whole. Why might their poor soldiering affect the whole? They prepared poor fighting positions. They are malingerers and precipitate a breakdown in discipline. They do a slapdash job of preparing fighting positions and don’t know how to stand guard. Because they break cadence while marching, the column moves much more slowly, and they get caught in the open.

A feint would be any sort of dangerous gambit. It could be any of the things you suggest. Hungry ghouls don’t strike me as the sorts who would try feints narratively, but it could include sneaky infiltration, or a ghoul who everyone thought was dead rising up from inside the lines. And note, Maneuver and Attack are VS Defend, so turtling isn’t the best strategy.

42

I’m about to go to bed, but it just struck me that I could apply the darkness as a penalty to the PC’s actions where it makes sense instead of folding it into the disposition. So drop the +3s for night eyes, but if a PC decides to Shoot Enemies or Move with Haste (or most of the actions, really) I could slap an Ob penalty on the action for darkness, and that wouldn’t apply to something like Rousing Speech or maybe Treat the Injured.

43

Night Terrors are magical creatures. We may have had a Stealth test at the beginning (I forget) to see who had the initiative (+2s to dispo), but they would have rolled a magical spell song for their disposition, which was an unusual case.

For the undead, Stealthy vs. Observation would be good for the engagement roll, but for the undead disposition, force them to test Tactics or Strategy. They’ll do horribly, but then, they should, they’re mindless undead. Their disposition will even things out. Don’t forget higher ground, and I’d be inclined to give them +2s dispo for the fear, also. Pretty much any encounter, the humans are going to be pissing themselves, failing to hold their ground constantly.

I think a dispo bonus for night vision is appropriate, because the dispo is meant to include all factors of the larger armies. The ambushed humans have problems at night, just like the players do, so that should be reflected in the disposition. I’m going to go out on a limb and

The moves are meant to be interpreted broadly. Defend is anything that improves your battlefield situation, whether that’s shoring up a failing flank, even just assessing the battlefield situation. The dead are completely capable of this, particularly since they can see at night. If the players move to a new hilltop (Maneuver), and a thousand eyes silently watch their torches go, then that’s the undead Defending.

Feint is also really appropriate for the undead. For any other general, sending your troops in an unprotected mass, straight up the middle of the battlefield at walking speed, is a dangerous gamble. Vigorous resistance (human Attack) could leave them cut to pieces, but humans trying to dig in (Defend) are going to get overrun and eaten. Another thing is that the undead aren’t well directed; they kinda mill around like video game enemies with bad AI. Packs of undead can easily get lost, split off in the darkness or terrain, and then reappear from behind the players at the worst time. Not because they’re clever, but because the main attack itself took so long to arrive - bits of it arrive in uncoordinated waves.

Turtling isn’t likely to be a problem, unless all the players have really strong defending skills. The tickdown eats a lot of disposition. Let them try it! That’s the stuff of horror movies.

44

Good intents might be: “Eat their flesh, and crack their bones!” vs “Hold out till morning”. That gives the dead Broad exposure and the troops Limited exposure. And then you can just keep the night vision as a disposition bonus. THe only reason I’d go with an increased obstacle is if, for whatever reason, the darkness is something that could go away, but even then, I’d treat that as a disposition loss for the zombies rather than a change in obstacles, by preference.

45

Another awesome conflict in the Burning Airships game:

The PCs have arrived in the vicinity to the First City, whose great ramparts have been overrun by orcs and are now being held out against their makers. What remains of the Elven navy besieges the capital, floating among the wrecks of ships that have fallen to streams of Hate and the massive balls belched forth from the cannon of the Gate Lords. The Faunheril is the freshest and fastest ship, bringing reinforcements from the White Tower. Derelion and Lunir have deadlocked over better plans, and as a major compromise, all good plans are off the table. There is only a frontal assault on the First City, a race to install an heir, or any singer really, in the First Throne, and sing something–anything–to aid the Navy, alleviate the siege, and free the capital. The Admiral says that the strike must be swift, as the Orcs will know of the Faunheril soon, and surprise will be lost.

Engagement roll: Lunir’s Tactics with FoRKs and Help against the Orcs’ Observation. Lunir wins–surprise is still on the side of the Elves.

The Elves have Moderate Exposure: take the first Throne. The Orcs have Broad Exposure: Destroy the Elven Navy

Disposition:Elves (The Faunheril, the remains of the Armada, spotters stationed in the Derelicts, Air Artillery)
+2s Winning Engagement
+1s Better-rested troops (the orcs have been under siege for years, the Faunheril and the Swords of the White Tower are fresh)
+1s Better-supplied troops (all Orcish ability to get into the floating city has been blockaded by the Navy)
+1s Cavalry/Mobility advantage (airships)
+1s Ranged troops advantage (archers on the Faunheril)
+1s Training advantage (well-disciplined crew)
+3s Hundreds
+5s Keep/Fortified Tower (airships count as this)
+3s Enemy Exposure

Orcs (Goblins calling down Hate and darkness, Bastions, cannon, wolves)
+2s Significantly outnumbering the enemy
+1s Heavy troops advantage
+1s Artillery advantage (bombards)
+7s Thousands
+1s Enemy Exposure
+7s Curtained fortress

Lunir (for the Elves, rolling Threnodic Harmony, the Elven Airship Piloting/Speed Spell-Song G6) 16 + 6 + 7s (one six exploded 4 times!)
Gate Keeper (for the Orcs, rolling Bastions of Hatred to represent ‘improvements’ to the fortifications) 17 + 6 + 5s
28 v. 28

L: Lunir; C: Culhir; D: Derelion; O: Orcs

We agreed beforehand that the situation of the combat demanded a switching of roles for the actions for the Elves, to represent the narrative: speed-type maneuvers are Attacks, Maneuvering for better position is a defend, actual attacks could be feints or maneuvers, etc. We also decided to script more narratively than before. Note: Lulls now do not tick down for the side that buys them.

Exchange One: Targeting a new tower that Observation says is not entirely finished, the Faunheril is going to make full speed for the walls, make an attack, then drive by or through the tower as needed.

V1: L: Att: Threnody (full speed ahead) vs. O: Def: Command (get troops in order)
Lunir wins by 4, and the Faunheril is already upon them while they are still in disorder. 28 V. 24
[Tick] 26 v. 22
V2: D: Man: Tactics (improves/has combatants cover for the crew) v. O: Man: Observation (tracking the movements of the ships)
D: buys Advantage, Impede, Lull O: buy Advantage and Initiative
[Tick] 24 v. 20
V3: C: Def: Song (signals the fleet to rain artillery on the tower–probably should have been Signalling in retrospect, but we have a rule in this game: “If in doubt, Sing.”) v. O: Att: Weapon Skill (Orcs are trying to fire upon the ship, targeting a specific group)
C: wins by 3: 27 v. 20 (the fire from the fleet makes the Orcs take cover, the Faunheril makes ground)
[Tick] 27 (Lull) v. 18

Exchange 2:
V1: D: Att: Tactics (shooting at the Hornblowers to press them) v. O: Def: Brazen Horns of Despair (interrupting the flow of Grief with streams of Hatred) O: win by 5!: 27 v. 23
[Tick] 25 v. 21
V2: C: Def: Lament of the Stars (Singing Grief to counteract the Hate spewed by the Horns) v. O: Man Command (? I lost my notes here) tied roll, no effect
[Tick] 23 v. 19
V3: L: Att: Threnody (Holding the ship to course, weaving through the streams of Hate, narrative Help from C:'s action) v. O: Att Weapon Skill (? again, I lost my notes) L: 6s O: 3s: 20 v. 13
[Tick] 18 v. 11

We had to break there, and will be finishing this next meeting, before next session begins. Probably with some rules tweaks, from what I hear.

46

Re: signalling, Mass Combat says you can use Musical Instrument for Signalling. Since we’ve established that the elvish airships act as song amplifiers, I thought Sing was a reasonable choice =P Otherwise, I would have used conspicuous, slashing my sliver spirit sword down in one graceful arc while balancing delicately on the prow, to signal the fleet to unleash their torrent of ballista bolts.

47

Hi, I playtested this with a friend with whom I play a one-to-one campaign, and we’re planning to play some more battles in the near future. Instead of posting an actual play, which would be boring due to some lucky rolls, I’m asking you a couple of questions:

  1. Can you clarify me what the obstacle for “fight enemy” is? It is “per enemy” in the description. Any example on how did you handle this in your games?
  2. Same question for “shoot enemy” which addresses to the notes, which aren’t yet complete.
  3. Is the obstacle of Oratory in Rousing Speech the same as in normal play (ie the average will of soldiers?)
  4. Could you explain me which exactly are the mechanical/fictional benefits of using the “initiative” or “you” options, when you obtain additional successes in manouver?
  5. The NPC army had a single general, which used his B5 Strategy in every action, directing the troops on the battlefield. So with Strategize you could basically obtain everything in a battle (it’s a ADFM action). Is this by design?
  6. What do you mean exactly when you say, in “harm’s way” chapter, that a pc reports a mark wound from a soldier? Does the pc get to test his armor in order to avoid the blow?
48

Wonderful! Thanks your interest, and for play testing. These are really good questions, and in some cases you’re pointing right at problems in the rules, so I have to tell you the spirit of what I intended, and make vague assurances of corrections in the next version.

  1. When you Fight Enemy, you’re going up against a combatant from the other side in a mini Bloody Versus.

Who? Against an orc army, it might be the weedy, expendable goblins of the front ranks, or it might be that you’re standing in front of their troll shock troops and you’re going to be pounded into the dirt.

It’s up to the GM, mostly, but the players will probably know ahead of time based on the description that’s been laid down. By the time you script Attack, you will have been told about the massed ranks of black orcs clashing their scimitars against their shields right in front of you.

The independent obstacle is the enemy troops’ skill divided by two, rounded down. Increase the Ob if the enemy outclasses the active player in weaponry, armor, and if they have funky special abilities (e.g. aura of fear, gray damage or reflexes), etc.

  1. Yes, sorry about that. The Ob is like RNC - Ob 2 for nearby enemies, Ob 3 for enemies at distant range.

  2. For now, go with Ob 2. This is getting a significant revision in the next update.

  3. Narrative benefits are always specific to your game. In this system, the state of the battle is always cradled by the narrative, rather than the other way around. The system doesn’t make statements about how many Attacks or extra successes it takes to break the unit of enemy cavalry, that’s always left up to the GM. This is not a war simulator, so the GM can arbitrarily decide to introduce elite cavalry in the final hour, that come blazing in from the left flank with B6 Lance and full plate.

Enemy skills and equipment emerge from the narrative. Elite black orcs might be B5 mooks in heavy armor, which are tough opposition. Players might target other troops to make it easier to do damage on Attacks. Tough PCs might attack them in an attempt to eliminate them outright. Enemy personalities (sorcerers, generals) are valuable targets for the same way, it takes their powerful abilities out of the battle.

There’s also the aftermath to consider. If the players allow enemy artillery to bombard the walls of their fair city, then there will be a lot more repair to do afterwards than if they eliminate them early on. If campaign antagonists are on the other side, targeting them might be really useful for player beliefs.

  1. Yes, this is by design. Strategy and Tactics are more flexible than any of the other skills. Any character can contribute (Merry & Pippin could use their actions to scramble out of danger: Maneuver/Move with Haste), but skilled leaders are really useful.

The spirit of the system is to oppose players with challenges that they can perceive. Wherever possible, the GM should try to find a way to use something the players can perceive as basis for his/her action. If players are grunts on the front line, fighting in a melee where everything has turned to mud and gore, the actions of the enemy general will be completely invisible to them. Enemy actions could be things like aggressive pushes, attempts to push through their line, reinforcements arriving, tactical withdrawals uphill, flights of arrows coming in from gods know where

  1. Yes, the player is struck by the blow, but not necessarily wounded - the player can roll armor. (Use DoF for hit location.)
49

I am the meditans’ friend and I read your Mass Combat and I have some observation to do.

  1. I think incredible that a general stay in his tend and direct his army only with “Strategy Roll”. So, for me, so you have to prepare a battle plain and one of your lieutenant have to direct the troop in battle following your plain (some +1D bonus).
  2. I think Fight can be used to Defense because you stay in the same position and defense your line fighting. Also Shoot can be used for defense because if one of the attack try to move he is shoot by an arrow.
  3. In the Lull if there isn’t an attack why the body lose 2 pt? And why don’t consider Lull also every volley without an attach/feint?
50

Thanks for your questions, Stigni.

  1. Strategy is not just about coming up with a battle plan in isolation, it’s about recognizing the enemy plan by interpreting what’s happening on the battlefield, adapting to changing situation and giving effective new orders. All of this is Strategy. Of course, the general’s top leaders are vital in running the battle, but in these rules, NPCs generally do not help the players. The lieutenants’ actions (and those of everybody else) are represented by the 2-point tickdown.

  2. The same thing crossed my mind. I think it makes more sense for Shoot than for Fight; Defense is about improving your own position (in absolute terms, not by pummeling the other guy). I could see delaying or screening actions as Maneuver, but not Defense.

  3. Others have suggested that there be no tickdown during a lull. You can do that if you like, or you can interpret the lull as local to the players in some way. Perhaps other parts of the army are fighting elsewhere.

51

I ran the battle against the undead that I mentioned above, and I didn’t have a very satisfying result, but I think it’s an easy fix. I’ll report the battle, then give my thoughts.

The PCs arrived in Dead Mule Pass with forty men of the 45th Michigan Rifles B Company. B Company was commanded by an NPC captain, Captain Teller. The PCs were Teach (an ex-sharpshooter turned mountain man), Cole (a gunslinger), Jeb (an ex-slave voodoun), and Doc Powell (a surgeon). The PCs were mostly concerned with escorting an NPC named Lewis.

B Company set up camp in the pass shortly before sundown. Lewis, Cole, Jeb, and Doc Powell slept in the middle of B Company’s camp. Teach was expecting trouble, so he took the two Indian scouts in B Company up on a ridge overlooking the camp. He set up alternating watches with the Indian scouts, but the scouts were spooked by earlier events and they deserted in the night (Teach failed a Command roll). Teach suddenly woke in the night, sleeping hidden between a couple large rocks, and heard something snuffling around in his little camp on the ridge. He emerged with his rifle and found two figures sniffing around his latrine. Their movements were jerky and uncoordinated, and he was already spooked, so he fired his rifle at one and hit it square, but it didn’t fall. I was ready to go to Fight, but Teach decided to leg it instead, running down toward the camp shouting.

As a result, the camp was just coming to alert when the pack of ghouls hit their perimeter. This was the start of the battle.

I ruled that the ghouls had won engagement, attacking at night while B Company was mostly asleep. The ghouls’ objective was “total slaughter” and I asked the players what they thought Captain Teller’s objective would be. They decided to “last through the night,” which I ruled as Limited Exposure.

We rolled Disposition. The dead rolled tactics unskilled, but they have a B1 Perception. They scored 1 success, plus 1 Perception, halved, was 1, plus (heavy troops 2, night eyes 3, better rested 1, dozens 1, winning engagement 2)= 10 Disposition.

Teach rolled Soldiering, for which he had 2 dice. No one else had Soldiering trained to assist. He scored 1 success, plus his 2 Soldiering, was 3, plus (training advantage 1, outnumbering 1, dozens 1, broad enemy exposure 3) = 9 Disposition.

I described the crack of a couple rifles and then screaming at the perimeter. The PCs jumped out of bed and armed themselves. I figured a camp of forty soldiers engaged in hard march during the day could only afford a few sentries, not enough to repel the attack beyond the perimeter, so the ghouls came rushing through the camp, throwing it into panic. I described three ghouls emerging at the edge of the kerosene lamplight as Cole headed toward the sound of fighting, and I called for a Steel test. He failed, so I let the dead make an unanswered Attack maneuver, rolled 1 success, and described how they rushed upon nearby soldiers and bore them to the ground as Cole stared, paralyzed with shock and fear. Dead 10. B Company 8.

Tick. Dead 8. B Company 6.

Then we scripted. I had four player characters so I decided to script in exchanges of four volleys instead of three for convenience.

The dead scripted Attack, Maneuver, Attack, Defend.
The PCs scripted Defend (Cole), Defend (Jeb), Attack (Teach), Defend (Doc Powell)

Cole tried to rally troops with his Command skill while the ghouls attacked. I described more ghouls emerging from the woods and Cole shouted at soldiers to engage them. We tied our rolls, so the troops surged to engage the zombies and held them, for now, at least in Cole’s neck of the woods. Dead 8, B Company 6.

Tick. Dead 6, B Company 4.

Jeb tried to seize control of some of the dead with his voodoo magic (Defend) while the ghouls ran through the camp in the dark (Maneuver). Unfortunately, Jeb failed his Sorcery check. The dead scored 2 successes on their maneuver and claimed an Advantage (+2D) to their next action. I described one of the ghouls blundering disjointedly into one of the kerosene lamps and knocking it to the ground, plunging the area further into darkness, and another surged up from the darkness to bite and tear at Jeb, causing a mark hit (due to the In Harm’s Way rule).

Tick. Dead 4. B Company 2.

Teach came crashing down the ridge and into the chaos of the camp. He immediately raised his rifle and started firing into the ghoulish horde wherever he could see them. I think I forgot to describe how the ghouls were throwing themselves on the bayonets of the terrified soldiers and reaching out to tear their flesh. Teach rolled Longarms vs. my Brawling, and I got 2 bonus dice. I scored 5 successes on 5 dice! But Teach has a B6 Longarms skill and he rolled well with a couple sixes, opened them up with a Fate point, and ended up scoring 7 successes! Dead 2. B Company 2.

Tick. Dead 0. B Company 0.

Nobody wins, compromise time. The compromise was that only the PCs, Lewis, and 7 soldiers remained alive and they had been driven for miles through the woods at the end of the battle. All the PCs had taken light wounds during the fighting. We rolled a die of fate for each soldier that had received extra characterization (Captain Teller, a private who hero-worshiped Cole, and two privates who had mistreated Jeb) and they all turned up dead.

Analysis: I was unsatisfied with the results of the battle, mostly because it was too short. Doc Powell didn’t get a single action, and the whole thing didn’t feel epic enough. If I were to do it again I would double or triple the starting dispositions. Nevertheless, the individual actions were fun and I can see that if I had crammed in more of them we’d have had a much better sense of the battle.

Did I do Jeb’s spellcasting turn right? Jeb was casting as a Defend and the dead were maneuvering (Moving with Haste). As I understand it, Jeb rolls Sorcery and the dead roll Speed. Jeb actually scored more successes than the dead (I think he scored 4 successes to the ghouls’ 2 successes), but he didn’t make the Ob of the spell so his successes don’t count, and the ghouls are effectively rolling Speed against Ob 0? Also, Jeb wasn’t in a lull so he gets bit. Is that right?

The battle was the last thing we did in our session and if the players are up for it I might ask them if they want to refight the battle next session with doubled or tripled dispositions. We’ll see.

52

Versus actions should not use any other Obs for this. Also—and fuseboy can correct me here—my interpretation (and how I’ve been running it in our game) is that you don’t automatically take damage from In Harm’s Way, it just means that if the other side is putting the hurt on you, you are eligible for the one that takes the hurt as opposed to abstracted damage to the rest of your side.

Also, loss of an action in this is pretty much a death sentence in this system.

53

Really? So in the example about treating the treating the general’s wounded son under “Individual Actions” the surgeon doesn’t have to hit the high surgery Ob to treat the wound, he only has to beat the enemy roll? I’m still a little confused by this. Can someone provide an example or two?

It says that if players fail actions tagged as Harms Way they are treated as suffering a Mark hit from an enemy foot soldier’s weapon. I think they can take armor saves if they’ve got armor, but the PCs in my game don’t wear armor.

Well, it’s pretty much a death sentence in Fight, too. The enemies were pretty lame in this fight, with only one trained skill at a 3. I don’t regret the Steel test.

54

The duration problem is something I’ve been considering too. I wonder if it wouldn’t be an idea to scrap the disposition bonus due to the size of the unit and rather than roll for disposition, simply treat it like a DoW Big Deal and add in the tactics/dueling skill of the person who’s rolling as successes.

55

I think the answer depends on the question: what kind of combat experience do you want?

Fight scenes in BW are typically very short, or at least short in terms of number of exchanges. Most Fights take only 1 to 3 exchanges to determine who wins and loses. R&C and DoW are similar.

The problem is, when you get into mass combat, the combat scene is still typically short, but the PCs aren’t doing as much. Hence the unsatisfactory feeling. Players like to feel as if their characters contributed directly, but when the big battle is over in just an exchange or two, you don’t walk away feeling as if you contributed at all.

Personally, I think it’d be more fun to run the entire battle as a series of two or three small Fight scenes, in which the PCs take direct part in turning points of the battle.

56

I think there is merit in both ideas, but I have to agree with Dean’s general statement, some kind of focus on a particular scene for the PC’s or a subset of them, helps make it feel mighty personal.

I do like the idea of General Abstraction for the battle, where a series of test might determine the general result, but I think a scene which pivots around tight focus the PC’s is extremely desirable. It’s finding the mechanic to balance those out.

I think in the example against the ghouls, a reduction in the power of the Tik might have had a more satisfactory result for the players and GM. The Tik takes power away from the scripting, while shortening play. In this case, that was not a good thing.

57

Yes, one thing to keep in mind is that the context the rules sprung from and were applied to is a game where dispositions are huge because there are huge forces led by damn powerful sorts (7-LP elves, elvish airship armadas, swarms of demonic beings, and an occupying force of orcs that are holding the first city ever—we have quite large dispositions and dice pools in the game).

On the smaller end of the scale it probably does end pretty quickly. Fuseboy is evidently changing some stuff around, which I’m excited to see—I think one thing that I’d really like is something that makes Maneuver not counter things so much as actually navigate around the landscape of the battle (like Advance/Withdraw in Firefight). I’m not sure if that’s going to be in there, but it is one thing I wish we had in the current Mass Combat where location is crucial to the end results.

58

So yes, as Tim says, we’ve been playtesting with much larger forces. The downtick isn’t meant to win the battle, merely to cause stress and ensure things are always heading toward closure. Minimum dispositions for interesting battles is probably around 12-16. I’ll have to tweak this, and I think Countercheck is on the right path.

In Harm’s Way only adds a risk of injury, but this wasn’t emphasized enough. I’ve tweaked this. Injury is a possible, optional, additional result if the GM choose to apply it.

Because the players’ actions are meant to be representative of the wider battle, having a player fail a steel test and leave his action unused is a death sentence and not what I was intending. An injured player, for example, drops out of the turn sequence - he doesn’t have to spend his actions groaning uselessly while the enemy savages the army’s flank. My inclination would be to have characters facing terrifying foes test steel to claim a turn, otherwise it goes to the next player on the roster while the coward shrieks or runs away. Missing a whole turn is too much.

Versus tests are just ordinary versus tests. For the purposes of affecting disposition, you do not need to meet any other obstacle beyond what the enemy sets. Now, if you’re treating a mortal wound and you need, say, Ob 6 or whatever, you won’t cure your patient by beating the enemy attack that generated 1 success. In truth, we haven’t had this scenario come up in playtesting - a versus test where the task normally has a very high Ob. Sorcery, Faith, and Treatment are the obvious candidates here. I will ponder this.

59

I printed out the rules before our game last week, but we didn’t get into any big fights (we had two Duel of Wits instead, so still plenty of fun!). The game I’m running is a pirate/nautical game, so I’ll be able to provide feedback on smaller-scale battles. Well, I will once my players go out raiding again, anyway.

60

I have a new idea for the Mass Combat.

What we desire from this Mass Combat? Some description of amazing local fights (the PCs actions) and to see how these local fights react with the entire battle.
So the PCs choose together what do the entire army and the explain how their action help the battle, it is possible that some PCs doesn’t help on a specific volley (like a Doctor on a Attack Volley, he can treat the injured but it doesn’t help the Attack).
These are like the linked test but extra success can help more in the result, a warrior with a Sword test can defeat some enemy soldiers but with some extra success can injury/kill a general, and so on…
What do you think?