So here’s something that occurs to me. If I’m captured by one of the GM’s figures of note, can he have me executed? I’m thinking of the end of the demo you ran for us at Gencon, in which we all screwed up and were jailed. I can see staging a rescue operation, exploring legal options, trying to bribe someone, etc… But what it all that fails, and we’re walked to the incinerator and pushed in?
-Chris
You’ll note that there are no execution mechanics. This is where I point up to a larger entity and to pages 610 to 625. You’re all friends (it says so in the book!) and you’ve got the game mechanics laid out before you. Sure, you’re captured, displaced, or whatever, but nothing (and I do mean NOTHING) in the rules says you can’t continue to use your various scenes to continue the conflict.
So you’ve got this situation, one’s right, one’s wrong:
Version 1
GM: You’re captured! Awesome, next scene, he spaces the lot of you!
Players: Buh?!
Version 2
GM: You’re captured! The Baron makes it clear he’s going to space. Say your last words.
Players: Can we take a couple of building scenes to set up a rescue and then smash in there with a Firefight?
GM: Of course! Because that’s conflict that drives the story forward! You do realize though, that if you fail in this conflict, that’s it, right?
Players: Got it.
Even the player “on the inside” can try to make Circles tests or engage in a DoW. When the time comes, the GM writes his objective like so, “You fight your way through the spacestation, but it’s too late, your friends have already been dumped out the airlock.”
Player Who Actually Reads the Rules: Hey, I couldn’t help but notice from the EVA rules, that you only take an H16 for being out in space. Can we recover his body? I’ve got a lab and a Surgery of 5…
And so it goes.
-Luke
I can only think of a few games that it’s harder to kill PCs in than Burning Empires. Even with a GM determined to win by offing all of the characters it would be a fucking momentous challenge without cheating.
If death were easier in the game there would be lots of legitimate complaints about how having to sit out sucks—because it does.
Given that, I’d be tempted to still let the player have Color and Interstitial scenes, to be optionally exercises as flash backs with the other players. Mostly it would be a chance to get some color in terms of notes, unfinished projects, and the like. But honestly, I doubt it’ll come up.
Why kill a PC when you can hull them?
:twisted:
Seriously. It’s such a waste.
Heh heh! Okay, guys, I consider my lesson learned! The lesson is: Shut up and play!
Which I will.
In a couple of weeks.
I hope…
Best,
Rob
I have a related question.
Bob’s character is the FoN for the Usurpation phase of the game. The GM wins the Infiltration phase with the phase goal “Remove Figure of Note from play,” targeting Bob’s character. Is Bob’s character now out of play during the Usurpation phase (and the Invasion Phase unless the players manage to bring him back in as the phase goal for Usurpation), or can Bob still play his character, but not as a Figure of Note?
That’s up to the situation at your table – what happened in play? What was the compromise?
-L
I guess that the difference is that in soem conflict scenes the stakes are limited to what the players choose for that conflict.
Where in contrast in Fire Fight Death is a Meta-Stake., You do not have to agree to it, and you may even “Win” the firefight and still perish.
I think this is a big break in the Conflict/Stakes mechcanic. I am not saying that it is bad! just saying that it is something the players and GM need to remember and consider.
The easiest way to approach this, I think, is to assume the most basic result - GM wins, no compromise, FoN out of play. Does Bob get to continue playing his character by default, or by default does he not, and have to make it part of a compromise in order to continue playing?
My take on this, based on the title of the effect (“Force a FoN out of play”) and comments so far on the death topic, is that unless Bob can work a compromise with the GM and make continued participation by his character a part of that compromise, Bob’s character is out of play. Is this correct?
[/i]
I’m sorry Shosuro, those questions were my answer. There is no “correct” answer to what you’re asking.
-L
Sorry to be thick headed, but I’m just starting my first game and I want to make sure I have this right. Is the following statement substantially correct?
Within the game mechanics there is no clearly defined rule for what happens to a PC Figure of Note who is removed from play via the “Force a figure of note out of play” phase objective, other than the effect that the PC cannot act as a Figure of Note unless reinstated via a subsequent phase objective. Whether the PC can continue to be played as a non-Figure of Note is totally up to the play group. Even in situations where no compromise is needed as part of resolution of the phase objective, the play group can decide whether the PC can continue to be played, or is effectively out of the game until reinstated.
I’m curious about this. I’ve been going over BE and preparing for my first campaign. I’ve also been trying to wrap my head around the “play to win” aspect of GMing.
Looking over the rules it seems to me that, particularly in the Infiltration phase, it is extremely cost effective in the long run to try to kill off as many of the Figures of Note as possible, thus denying the other side the use of their dice in affecting disposition in future phases. Effectively it acts as a free “remove Figure of Note from play” phase objective.
Since Player Characters are frequently Figures of Note, wouldn’t it be an effective strategy to try to kill as many of them as possible as soon as possible?
For example, in the campaign I am starting all three Figures of Note are PCs. It seems to me that I should at least be targeting the FFoN for the Usurpation phase
I know that through the use of Artha PCs become more difficult to kill - does it make them sufficiently difficult to kill that it is not worthwhile to pursue this strategy? Or am I simply not doing the math correctly regarding the benefits of killing the Figures of Note early?
What am I missing here?
Page 409 clearly states that forcing a FoN out of play prevents him from rolling for his side’s Prequel in the next phase. That’s it.
And to answer your other question: Killing FoNs is also an effect way to undermine the opposing side. But it’s not a matter of simple math. If in your world it’s just a simple matter of pointing at the other FoNs and saying “enemy! kill!”, then you’re not playing Burning Empires.
Because that enemy FoN? He’s your father and you love him. Or he’s your mentor and you could never imagine that he betray you. Or she’s your wife and has nothing but your best interest at heart.
-L
It’s a valid strategy, but it’s difficult! Firefights aren’t really enough (since defenders get to choose who receives the shot), unless you can close to Close Combat, which is incredibly risky! The only really effective way to accomplish it is through the Infiltration of an assassin or similar who can then pull off I Corner Him and Stab Him in the Face! In worlds with crazy security measures, that’s easier said than done.
As for your initial question, in one of our playtests, we successfully pushed a Figure of Note out of play. He was the Forged Lord who was unwittingly aiding the Vaylen. By removing him from play, we prevented Luke from having him available to add his skill roll to the Vaylen disposition for the Invasion. However, Luke was free to use him as a character for the Invasion, since he wasn’t dead. He’d been forced out of power. And, according to our epilogue, was hulled by the Vaylen.
So just because a Figure of Note is removed does not necessarily mean that he’s dead, nor does it mean that he can’t be used in the next phase of play. He just can’t make the initial roll to add his skill to the Disposition. Color-wise, that Figure of Note has been removed from his power base.
[quote=“Thor Olavsrud”]
It’s a valid strategy, but it’s difficult! Firefights aren’t really enough (since defenders get to choose who receives the shot), unless you can close to Close Combat, which is incredibly risky! The only really effective way to accomplish it is through the Infiltration of an assassin or similar who can then pull off I Corner Him and Stab Him in the Face! In worlds with crazy security measures, that’s easier said than done.
I’m glad that it isn’t an end-all, be-all strategy. If its a legitimate way to go about things, but not significantly better than other strategies that can net you similar effects, that’s fine with me.
So just because a Figure of Note is removed does not necessarily mean that he’s dead, nor does it mean that he can’t be used in the next phase of play. He just can’t make the initial roll to add his skill to the Disposition. Color-wise, that Figure of Note has been removed from his power base.
Thanks. That gives me a good indication of how to play that out.
So, in fact, there is a default answer - FoN stays in play but not as a FoN. That’s what I needed to know. Thanks.
And to answer your other question: Killing FoNs is also an effect way to undermine the opposing side. But it’s not a matter of simple math. If in your world it’s just a simple matter of pointing at the other FoNs and saying “enemy! kill!”, then you’re not playing Burning Empires.
Because that enemy FoN? He’s your father and you love him. Or he’s your mentor and you could never imagine that he betray you. Or she’s your wife and has nothing but your best interest at heart.
I agree with this wholeheartedly when applied to PCs killing NPC FoNs. Additionally, you can get some great roleplaying conflict in when Player A knows that FoN #1 is an evil bastard, but Player B still thinks FoN #1 is a beloved mentor.
The situation is a bit more variable when it comes to NPCs gunning for PC FoNs. Sure Hammer Lord Sharon loves her father, the influential head of the Miner’s Guild, and he loves her. Sure he would never do anything to hurt her. Unfortunately for him he isn’t the one driving his body around since he got hulled, and the naiven in the driver’s seat only sees Hammer Lord Sharon as a threat who needs to be dropped into a very deep mine shaft and covered up with rocks.
Obviously not all NPC FoNs, even those on the Vaylen side, are going to be actively promoting the Vaylen cause - some are dupes. But I just don’t see the Vaylen or their active supporters having much compunction about hulling and/or killing one of their host body’s relatives.
What I took away from it is if you are worried about it make sure you have a second in command or some other lacky that, while perhaps not particularly powerful, gives you an active seat at the table. I think you just need someone, anyone, to justify a building scene. Where your character’s influence reaches out beyond the grave. Say your PC at least died a big, messy martyr for the cause. That seems to have an air of coolness about it.