Religious Diatribes in DoW

Why can’t Religious Diatribe can’t be used in a DoW for Point and Rebuttal (but Oratory can?). The way I understand the Religious Diatribes, it is a form of Oratory but for specific uses only… (which is also a little puzzling for me… I am not sure I understand why Suasion and Religious Diatribes exist… I see them as narrowed specialization of Persuasion and Oratory… but why does specialization are needed for Religious themes, and, say, not for academic, esoteric, thaumaturgic ones?)

Thanks for explaining!

There’s quite a bit of setting implied by the way chargen is put together. After all, the emotional attribute of man is Faith, not Reason. Religion is not treated differently because it’s different; it’s different because it’s treated differently. To me, Suassion sets religious fervitude and servitude aside in the setting as a separate thing, backed by centuries of strong cultural inculcation, belief and prejudice. Faith can cause both great self sacrifice and terrible genocide. In a game about fighting for what you believe the treatment of religion sets a very strong tone that runs through the game.

Thanks noclue, this answers the second part of my question, and deepens my understanding of the philosophy behind Burning Wheel. This is much appreciated!

Yet my first inquiry remains a mystery : why is it not possible to use Religious Diatribes in DoW for Point and Rebutal, but Oratory is allowed? The description of Religious Diatribes goes as follow : “This is a specialized form of Oratory used for the angry religious types” (2013, Third Printing, p.290). I am puzzled…

I’d probably allow it to be used in place of Oratory in an appropriate situation. Religious Diatribe would be useless against a room full of nonbelievers, but tearing someone down in front of your congregation? Totally acceptable in my book. I think of Suasion in the same way.

Look at the actions it does benefit: Feint, Dismiss, and Obfuscate. I don’t think Luke and BWHQ were trying to be cynical or insulting in this application, but to reflect the way religion was used historically: to create moral traps, dismiss opposing views, or use illogical arguments (see: Salem Witch Trials, “if the victims float they are not a witch.” Great! That also means they’re dead.". Point is much more about making a well-reasoned, logical argument.

That being said, if the Duel of Wits is between members of the church, I see no reason why it couldn’t be used for the Point action since everyone involved is a Believer and would respond to angry religious oratory the way people respond to solid arguments.

Edit: beat’d by Shaun.

Charismatic religious speeches are still under Oratory. With Religious Diatribe, you want to keep in mind that it’s not just religious oratory, it’s a diatribe! You can’t make points or rebuttals because you’re not arguing in a proper debate way. You’re shouting and preaching and thundering, relying more on volume and passion than on making actual points.

Priests, well-versed in their faiths, get Oratory. Zealous Converts get Religious Diatribe. They may not actually know enough to convince the cool-headed, but damn if they can’t get up on a soapbox and hold forth with a fervent light shining in their eyes.

Ah, True! Thanks. It all makes sense now… I was not taking enough attention to the name of the skill itself… it is true that diatribes are, well, diatribes… (and since English is not my first language nor the one I use daily, I seldom if not never use the word Diatribe :smiley: )

Also remember that the actual act of tearing someone down in front of your flock isn’t a point, it’s a dismiss. The point is the nice stuff leading up (Suasion), the dismiss is you casting them out with brimstone (Religious Diatribe).