Stakes vs Obstacles

Yes, “Man of Iron” was an unfortunate box-office flub. :slight_smile:

In fact, I not only chimed in my agreement, I added details. “Philadelphia (the other PC) overacted! The military people we cast ‘as themselves’ didn’t know how to act!” etc. It was so ridiculous that we all laughed our asses off.

But to tie this example back to the point of the thread… in my opinion it’s really important to have fun with failure. Not just in BE/BW, but in life! But in BE especially since it doesn’t really affect the macrogame. :slight_smile:

Matt

Not all players feel this way, no matter how much fun I try to make failure. We’re going a couple more turns with this player – it may simply not be his cup of tea, and that’s absolutely fine.

Personally, I’ve really enjoyed some of the stakes my players have come up with for my GMFoN’s independent rolls. In most cases I almost don’t care if the character wins or loses. But, as was explained to me, I don’t have the same level of investment in my little army of characters as each player has in his personal character.

p.

Hey Paul,

Can you start another thread talking specifically about the instances in your game where failure was a problem – especially cases where it upset your player. Fevered Circle would probably be the best forum for that.

-L

Yeah, absolutely, if it ever proves to be a problem in actual play. So far it’s a predominantly theoretical problem for this player. Again, if he’s out there reading I really hope he’ll post up what he thinks is, or was, a problem with the failure stakes.

(His theoretical position, as I understand it, has/had to do with the disconnect between the stakes, the task, and the difficulty – which I believe we’ve hashed out in person and in this forum.)

p.

I want to come back to this for a minute. This has a lot to do with the discussion one thread over, regarding using the building scene to burn things (with or without rolls). I’m also thinking about it from the player’s POV, if they tried the same thing with me.

Let’s say I use a color or interstitial scene to describe this law. No build scene. What is to prevent another player from coming up with new color that says “yeah, that law was repealed after the Great Strike of 745 - apparently your old law books weren’t kept up to date”?

My understanding is that investing some of my Build mojo into something protects it from getting colored away. It seems both unfair and illegal according to the rules-as-written for someone to try to color away my color and have me simply say “nah…I want a DoW to protect it.”

p.

Because the law is not a piece of technology - it’s an agreement (of sorts) between the League Official and the Steward. He could challenge it, in fact, he could out-and-out veto it, by refusing a DoW. If one of the PCs wants to challenge it, there is a very real and definite conflict there, and it should be played out.

EDIT: I formally retract and disavow the rest of this post. Sorry for the confusion.

In the book example, Mayuran’s character has a color gun. When the assassin comes, color trumps color, yes - but that doesn’t mean the GM can just say “no, you don’t have a pistol” - he says no you can’t use it in combat unless you use a roll to make it Hard Tech.

If a Player just brings up more color laws that say NO to the GM’s color, that’s the same as saying “no, you don’t have a pistol”. It’s just destroying previous color - if there is a dispute about it, that’s a conflict, and rolls should be made (just like any other dispute in the game). And those rolls then establish the color as “hard tech”.

Also, I’m a little curious - why does it seem unfair? You are basically saying “I’m willing to roll for this color, to make it real - are you willing to roll to get rid of it?” Besides, you get your defensive rolls for free.

Which brings me back to Tech vs Not-Tech - in that example, Mayuran gets his combat roll, but he would need to make a Resources roll to make the gun Hard Tech (and he was probably out of scenes). The law isn’t a piece of technology - you can bring legal action with a DoW, so you should for sure get a chance to demand a DoW to defend your color laws.

That’s my Rebuttal, I think.

No scrap that, here’s what I meant to say:

The law must be drafted, interpreted and enforceced in a social context. All disputes over laws should be handled as Social Conflicts, because that is what they are.

No dispute, you get what you want. So, really, if the player wants to introduce his own preferred law that disputes the League Official’s law, that’s fine - he can pull that out and show it around to his friends and relatives, but when she takes control of the Anvil, he’s gonna need to use a Conflict Scene to stop her.

IF (if) the Steward resisted her, then she’d have to DoW him, and spend a GM scene to do that.

Yes, that reads much better.

As a GM, I might have a problem with one of my players pulling a “But wait! The Kerrn faction can take over the Anvil in the event of a strike”. Obviously there’s a judgement there – the merchant league clause is less unlikely, and I have the advantage of having the Imperial Steward on Team Evil. And I think everyone’s understanding of the setting is that the Kerrn are a disenfranchised minority. But still…I think I’d expect the player to “make” that law before they went to court, or the Anvil HQ, or whatever, to act on it.

On the unfairness: If I declare something as color, it only costs me a sliver of an otherwise unlimited color scene. There’s no internal budget to a color scene, the way there is in a building scene. In the building scene, I have three chances to make something real/noncolor in the game. In a color scene, I can describe stuff to my heart’s content until the GM or a player says “no.”

The unfairness comes in with the other player having to use up one of his three building opportunities to eliminate something I created for nothing. Understanding this was further complicated by a bad example in the book, but now that we’ve talked through it I feel more strongly than ever that color trumps color, and to keep your color from getting trumped you’d better use up some of your limited building resources to make it untrumpable.

I respectfully have to disagree with your interpretation that saying “no” to the other player’s color pistol triggers a roll. It clearly does not in the example about color tech: knocking away the pistol is fundamentally the same as saying “no,” and it didn’t take a roll to do it. The pistol has no mechanical effect on the game 'til it gets burned.

A light just went off in my head.

I’m still disagreeing with your interpretation but now I’m thinking about the mechanical effect thing. I’m not sure if a “law” has any sort of mechanical effect at all, other than setting a Ob for a Law roll or as a linked test or FoRK into a DoW. I’m going to try and focus on in-game mechanical effects being what you’re burning. That might work, conceptually, for us.

Anyway, back to the color trumping color thing (which probably deserves its own thread). My feeling is that the scene economy rules aren’t quite as airtight as they might have appeared in playtest. Abzu himself acknowledges there’s at least one bad example in the book, and it sure sounds like he plays the game following slightly different house-rules than what’s in print.

The notion of having a budget of building rolls you can sprinkle, as needed (except in color scenes?), throughout the entire maneuver isn’t actually addressed or supported in the rules-as-written. It would change the scene economy quite a lot to make that explicit, and would simplify these discussions: Did you have a building roll left this maneuver? If so, you could burn up your pistol in response to the assassin knocking it away.

It raises other questions as well, again probably better suited to another thread. Can you “bank” unspent Builders? If the GM says “yes” without making you roll for it, but it was during a “building scene”, does that count as a banked Builder roll? And so on.

p.

No, you’re right. Post #26 is a crap example, poor explanation.

What you say about mechanical effects is spot-on, and it actually backs up post #27, my interpretation of the Legal Example. Sure, the PC’s law can trump the League Official’s law, but that’s not the real issue at hand, it just determines what skills you use in the DoW. So in that case it’s not something you get for nothing - the NPC FoN already has control over the Anvil, he can hand it over to whomever he wants, without a roll.

As for color stuff in general, as opposed to that example, you’re right.

As for scene economy rules, I don’t think I have a solid answer for that. One reason for passing over burning something (like Dro’s fortifications) is to keep play moving, and the sacrifice for that is letting him have a roll later. So yeah, you could let players bank rolls for things they introduce first as color, and just let them roll later if it comes up.

Sure, the PC’s law can trump the League Official’s law, but that’s not the real issue at hand, it just determines what skills you use in the DoW

This makes a lot of sense to me. A law doesn’t have its own objective reality independent of people’s perceptions the way (say) a gun does. It is what people agree it is. And in real life, even relatively simple laws can be read in very different ways by different people – look at the Supreme Court’s flipflops over the decades on slavery and equal rights, or the 2004 election…

Agreed, Sydney. I’m reconsidering my position on the Law thing, but it’s hard for my old-skool GM mind to wrap itself around having this same sort of strategy used against me!

p.

LOL, I’m going to incorporate that into the banter of my game. It’s not the, “Say Yes” or roll the dice,’ rule, it’s the, “You gotta problem w/ that? No? Fuck it. Boom baby!” rule.