Worlds & Lords

Burning Empires General Questions
12

I very much like the “circuits” idea as well. Very High Middle Ages in Space, with distance forcing decentralization requiring Rube Goldberg governance structures, which is dead-on to the theme of the setting.

Now, running statistics:

Chris says

Number of Systems per District: 1d10

Value: 1d10-2

For a Value 3 or higher independent system, roll 1d6-1 to determine its index (ie 0-5 index).
For a Value 2 or lower independent system, roll 1d6-3 (ie 0-3 index).

Sector Capital: Index + Val = 10+
Industrial World: Index + Val = 9-10
Resource World: Index + Val ≤ 8

Since Resource Worlds can’t support a Forged Lord, we don’t have to worry about the second formula for Tech Index: It’s mathmatically impossible for a system with Value of 2 or less to get a high enough Tech Index for the total to exceed 8 and make it an Industrial World.

So, we have, assuming Sector 311’s density of worlds is average, and that its “Independent” systems are representative of the Tech Index of the rest of the Iron Empires (unlike its Karsan systems, which are explicitly stated in the Brick to be atypically high in their Indices):

Sector Capitals 10%
Industrial Worlds 15%
Resource Worlds 75%

Average District - rounded values (true values):
Sector Capitals 1 (0.55)
Industrial Worlds 1 (0.825)
Resource Worlds 4 (4.125)
Total Worlds 6 (5.5)

Now, there are 25 Districts per Quadrant, and four Quadrants, totalling 100 Districts, per Sector (see Chris’s notes on astrocartography, or just eyeball the Sector 243 map). That produces

Average Sector:
Sector Capitals 55
Industrial Worlds 83 (82.5)
Resource Worlds 413 (412.5)
Total Worlds 550

Now, it’s not stated anywhere I can find how many Sectors there are in the Iron Empires, and the PDF version of the IE map from pg. 28 of the Brick which I have at work is too blurry for me to make out the key (dammit), but the Astrography page states the entire Hanrilke realm is roughly 2,000 light-years on a side, and a Sector is 200 ly on a side. That suggests that the space occupied by the successsor states is 10 Sectors by 10 – although this doesn’t jibe with the gridlines on the map (sigh).

Anyway, assuming the Iron Empires occupy an area of 100 Sectors – Chris, please correct me if I’m wrong! – then

[EDIT: deleted incorrect calculations to avoid confusing posterity]

Now, as I’ve said, my assumptions may be significantly off.

13

After a flurry of emails between me and Chris, I think I’ve got this nailed down a bit better:

The Sector 311 formulae for world density, value, and “independent worlds” Tech Index are indeed reflective of the Iron Empires as a whole, to a first approximation. So that part stands.

However, the figures for the Iron Empires as a whole are somewhat off because instead of 100 Sectors, the eight successor states only occupy about 70 sectors.

So, the revised and corrected estimates for the Iron Empires as a whole are

Sector Capitals 3,850
Industrial Worlds 5,775
Resource Worlds 28,875
Total Worlds 38,500

Capitals plus Industrial Worlds: 9,625

Rounding that up to a tidy 10,000 systems capable of supporting a Forged Lord and using a simple powers-of-ten hierarchy again, that gets us

10,000 Forged Lords with one industrialized system
1,000 Regional Lords with ten industrialized systems
100 Great Lords with 100 industrialized systems
10 Emperors/Overlords with 1,000 industrialized systems - very close to the actual number of successor states, eight (though not all have a single overlord)

14

Those look like a reasonable estimate to start with, Sydney. Remember, many of those sectors (like 243) are only partially controlled by the Empires, much of them are independent, so that will skew the numbers down a bit.

I call I want to be an Overlord!

-Chris

15

Can I be a Circuit Lord Chris? I’d be happy to keep an eye on this “Great Lord Sydney Freedberg” - who seems so popular with the Pilotry - for you…

[wigged, scheming]

16

[scheming] O lofty sovereign, this Trithemius chap does seem useful. Perhaps it would be wise to employ him in some modest capacity in the Circuits, far from court. Far, far, from court. [/scheming]

Ahem.

Now we’re getting somewhere!

The next thing is to try to align the feudal hierarchy more-or-less loosely with these tiers.

The top tier - the overlords with 1,000 industrialized systems – is pretty easy to name. It’s the Darikahn and Gonzagin Emperors, the Dunedin Overlord, the Urfan U’zar, the Karsan Tirkahn, and the Casiguran High Mother. (Sad thing: I didn’t have to look in the Brick for those names). The Comoran worlds don’t have a single Overlord in this tier, and the Primarch of the Mundus Humanitas, while ruler of the Kudus Theocracy, isn’t quite the same kind of politicalanimal.

As for the lower tiers, Chris Moeller’s not-necessarily canonical notes on his website have this to say:

Duke The highest rank in the Imperial Federationís hereditary peerage. The Duke’s name must date back to the Federation Register (at least 600 years). The Grand Lord is considered the first among the Dukes. There is no equivalent to a Duke in the Karsan League.

Earl A “new Duke”, a baron who has been elevated in rank by the Grand Lord, and who holds his rights and title from him. The Earls form the Grand Lordís strongest power base. They rank above a Baron, but below a Duke. In the Karsan League, Earls are given the suffix “-Kun”, for example Havers-Kun would be the equivalent of “Earl Havers.”

Count also called a Companion, the Count holds his rank as servant of an imperial court, (either from the Federation, Hanrilke, Gonzagin or Darikahn Empires). Otherwise indistinguishable in rank from an Earl. In the Urfan Court, the Uzar heads a class of Counts called the Uprichi (the individual rank being “U’phir”) dependent on him for their power.

Baron Any landed noble holding his rights and title by military or other honorable service directly from a superior noble (Duke, Earl or Count). In the Urfan worlds, Barons are called U’yars. In the Karsan League, they’re called Sipahis.

What’s critical to note here is that these titles are about what liege lord granted the title, how long ago rather than power currently held.

Count, Duke, and Earl are all potential titles for anyone in the upper two tiers – that is, holding 10-100 industrialized systems. The key thing is that these nobles hold their titles directly from their sovereign. Dukes have the most prestige because of the ancientness of their ancestry but not at all necessarily the most power.

Presumably, in the Federated and Hanrilke Eras, a lord holding 1,000 industrialized worlds would also be in Count / Duke / Earl (CDE?) category, since in that era they were not independent but rather vassals of the sovereign of that time, namely the Emperor of all humankind.

Then the title “Baron” covers any lord who holds title not directly from the sovereign, but rather from a Count/Duke/Earl. I suspect that this rank, too, covers a wide range of levels of power. It seems like at least some Forged Lords holding title to an Industrialized World and several suborbinated Resource Worlds are still mere Barons. Conversely, Baron Sheva in Sheva’s War seems to be a mere Anvil Lord ruling part of a planet – Chris,correct me if I’m wrong? – so at least some Barons are not Forged.

17

Oh, and I forgot to merge in information from some (old, subcanonical) notes Chris emailed me. Two salient points:

  1. “All mobile (star-faring) units are ‘held’ by Barons” – some Hammer, some Anvil, and some Forged.

  2. Barons vary widely in power. Most Barons own only parts of a system and are either Hammer Barons or Anvil Barons. At the high end, though, some of the Forged Barons hold sway over multiple systems – although it’s unclear whether this interstellar influence is formal, informal, or some hybrid of the two.

18

In The Passage Laser mentions he is in Baron Elias’ Forge, but his C.O. is a Baron Groy, who appears to be an Anvil Lord working for/sworn to Elias. So, yeah, I think many (most?) Barons are not Forged, many may just be Lords, without any higher title.

And I say keep Trithemius around, ya never know when you need an Archivist! (Trust me on that one.)

Cheers, Lance

19

I’d presume there are also Anvil Lords and Hammer Lords of (relatively) recently elevated lineage who hold no Baronial title at all and are simply referred to as “Lord.”

Of course, while their hereditary luster may be dim, their real-world power may be formidable:

"Roi ne suis,
"Ne prince ne duc ne comte aussi;
“Je suis le sieur de Couci.”

(I am not king,
(Nor prince, nor duke, nor count;
(I am the Lord of Couci.)

  • from Barbara Tuchman’s A Distant Mirror: The Calamitous 14th Century, p.4 – one of Chris Moeller’s inspirations for the Iron Empiers
20

Also taking inspiration from A Distant Mirror, I think it’s important to note that a neat, pyramidal hierarchy of power is only theoretical. In addition to new grants, the buying, selling and trading of fiefs in the 14th century was common enough that laws had to be passed to prevent landholders from doing so without the consent of their lords. The power structure got very messy, very quickly.

Also, Tuchman asserts that it could be advantageous for noblemen of the period to have multiple masters so as to play them against the other for more gain.

21

Right. And when it come to computing real power, rather than nobility of lineage, the key issues are (1) industrial worlds, as we’ve already gone into, and (2) distance.

A Sector is 200 light-years by 200; a Quadrant, 100 by 100 ly; a District, 20 x 20 ly (according to Chris’s notes on astrocartography). The speed of ships is measured in DV (distortis vicis, “distortion week”), where 1 DV is two light years per week. Chris posted in an earlier thread that

although there are some super-fast couriers with “Burnhardt Compression Drives” (BCD) that can go as fast as 18 DV.

Now, when you’re talking about maintaining control of a region of space, the key thing to calculate is an asymmetrical round trip: how long it takes for a courier to bring a report from a trouble spot on your frontier to your capital, and how long it takes for a combat force to deploy from your capital to the frontier trouble. (Of course, you can position combat squadron nearer your frontier, but their commanders might decide to rebel if you can’t bring your personal fleet to bear from the capital).

Let’s be generous and allow couriers to sustain 12.5 DV, or 25 light years per week. That’s assuming BCD is fairly common and you have a system of prepositioned refueling stops and/or a relay of couriers that goes all the way from the frontier to the capital; not all interstellar realms will have this! Let’s further assume that prepositioned depots to cut refueling time allows combat squadrons optimized for fast response to sustain an impressive average of 5 DV, or 10 light-years a week.

So, response time for various distances:

Across a Sector (200 ly wide):
Courier inbound: 8 weeks
Combat outbound: 20 weeks
Total response time: 28 weeks

Across a Quadrant (100 ly wide), i.e., from the middle of a Sector to the edge:
Courier inbound: 4 weeks
Combat outbound: 10 weeks
Total response time: 14 weeks

Across a District (20 ly wide):
Courier inbound: < 1 week
Combat outbound: 2 weeks
Total response time: < 3 weeks

22

[continuing]

Now we can marry those distances up to the tiers of the feudal hierarchy.

A District averages 1 or 2 (1.375) Industrial/Capital Worlds; it’s the domain of your run-of-the-mill Forged Baron. He can keep a tight grip on his outlying Resource Worlds because he can respond to any revolt or raid within a week or two.
If there is a cluster of Industrial/Capital worlds all within a single district – as happens in quite a few places on the Sector 243 map, that creates a compact, easily controlled power base for a major Forged Lord, a great Baron or a Count/Duke/Earl. Such clusters are prime property, and their locations will be militarily and politically critical!

Without such clusters, it takes an average of seven districts (at 1.375 Ind/Cap worlds each) to get to 10 Industrial/Capital Worlds, the domain for a “Regional Lord” (a mid-tier Count/Duke/Earl) in our simple “powers of ten” scheme. Even if the capital’s significantly off-center and/or the territory is highly asymmetrical, that’s still only two or three districts, at most, to cross between capital and frontier, which means a response time of 6-9 weeks.
Such a territory is still pretty controllable from a single point. The regional Forged Lord does definitely want those vassal single-world Forged Lords at the local level to respond immediately to problems, but he can still ride herd on them from his capital as needed: They know that if they revolt, their liege will be on top of them in two months, tops.

A Sector averages over 100 (137.5) Industrial/Capital Worlds. So, in our powers-of-ten scheme, a Great Lord (a high-tier Count, Duke, or Earl) probably rules a domain roughly a Sector in size. Assuming his capital is as dead-center as he can make it – and at this scale, the random variations in the locations of high-value worlds will probably even out enough that he can make it fairly dead-center – he has to cross a whole Quadrant to get from his capital to his frontier.
That makes the Great Lord’s response time 14 weeks – more than three months. And that’s assuming fairly optimistic average speeds, which will be hard to sustain across such distances because of the logistical infrastructure required. That gives rebels considerable time to consolidate their gains and prepare their defenses: The American Revolution succeeded in large part because of the 2-3 months it took to cross the Atlantic each way from Britain (4-6 months round trip). But I’d argue that it’s still feasible to exert some measure of control.

Then you get to the Overlords. They control domains that are a Sector or two across. On the sector-gridded map of the Iron Empires (which should be up on the wiki soon), the Gonzagin Empire and the Karsan League are about two Sectors wide, requiring response to cross a full Sector-plus in some places. The Darikahn Empire is so sprawling and asymmetrical that it is four Sectors wide in some places, requiring a response to cross two Sectors.
We’re talking about response times in the 28-56 week range – easily up to a year in the case of the Darikahn. No wonder the Emperor’s control over his outer vassals is tenuous, and he cannot easily prosecute a war along the frontier with another successor state.

The largest “natural” political unit in the Iron Empires is arguably not on the scale of the Empires at all: It’s the Great Lord’s domain of about 100 worlds concentrated in a single sector.

23

I’m dissatisfied with the term “regional lord,” and “Great Lord” isn’t perfect either. To give a better sense of the scale, perhaps “Sector Lord” for the lord of a whole Sector (ca. 100 industrial worlds), and “Cluster Lord” for the lord of ca. 10 industrial worlds, since such a noble’s base of power is probably a cluster of closely adjacent industrial worlds?

24

I really like the term “magnate”, however in Burning games thise seems to have been used to refer to merchant-types of great importance.

Additionally, sorry to have seemed to have wandered away from this discussion - I am a bit busy at work and don’t have a lot of time for the forum at present unless it directly relates to our latest game. I shall return, hopefully with something interesting to say and ideally laden down with ancient technology with which to punish my scheming rivals!

25

We also have the classic space-operatic example of the Baron Harkonnen - a figure who has more influence, wealth, and might than a Duke of near-peerless lineage.

I don’t know how much selling of fiefs in the 14th century pattern will go on, but - to update it a bit and to take into account the technoeconomy of the Iron Empires a bit - I do like the idea of the Pilotry going into hock for a refit of their Index 5 Iron and having to contract out their hereditary rights to the production of their vassal factory-shop-workers. I’ve been having a bit of fun imagining what a Lord Pilot’s Fee looks like - and I imagine it as something other than acres of grain and bent back peasants; I like the idea that it might be in the form of skilled labour that is lent out to League industrialists or used in the factories of feudal superior.

A great example of this in the medieval period is the faydit lords of Southern France who owed fealty to the Kings of Aragon, often simply because there was a mountain range in his way.

I imagine that there is a lot of these sorts of pressures in states with centralising tendencies. A planetary lord can play off the Emperor-equivalent’s Steward-equivalents and his feudal superior’s Circuit-Lords in such states, whereas it might simply be harder to find multiple magnates to serve in the more fragmentary states.

26

States with centralising tendencies – I’d imagine that’s the Darikahn Empire, in a big way.

27

Yep, they’d be the ones that leap to mind for me as well. And the Gonzagin. I am just not sure how centralised the other ‘empires’ are. I expect that the Karsan League is more about having support rather than unbreakable fealty - I imagine important lords having a lot of emissaries and diplomats all out keeping an eye on how the wind is blowing.

28

The Gonzagin are actually described (somewhere) as being fairly loosely organized – an Empire in name and a “baronial confederation” in fact. I think the Darikahn are the only dynasy explicitly trying to rebuild the old Imperial systems of control.

In fact, when I look at the Darikahn’s religious policy – trying to wipe out the Mundus Humanitas – I get the impression they’re trying to revive the glory days of the pre-Mundus, pre-Hanrilke Federated Empire. Which is sociologically a hell of an uphill climb.

29

Really? Interesting! I might rephrase it to say that the Gonzagin are pursuing a centralising project - albeit without the success of the Darikahn. There may be more than one powerful wannabe ‘emperor’ each with their own wide-spread network of vassals and alleigances that all need to be monitored and/or enforced.

30

There may be more than one powerful wannabe ‘emperor’

Got it in one, actually. The brick describes a “Gonzagin Civil War” between the Gonzagin family and a powerful “Duke Evans.” What Evans rules is not precisely described, but I personally imagine him as a Great Lord with perhaps 100 industrial worlds swearing some form of fealty. That is, he is the dominant power in a full sector – which, eyeballing the map, is about a quarter of the Gonzagin Empire.

31

I wrote up a “Great Lord” lifepath and associated “Uneasy lies the head” trait here.