Build your own Anvil Battalion - TO&E generator

Burning Empires General Questions
61

Yeah, this makes sense.

#1 would basically support a company commander; “go watch that village before my attack and tell me what you see.” (This is how Scout-Snipers are used in the Marine Corps, Scout is first on purpose, and I know those two man teams would love to have some transpo vice walking!)

#2 would more likely support an Anvil force, “find the Vaylen battalion in the Cascade Valley.”

#3 would a be a Forged Lord’s asset, “screen my right flank, I don’t know what’s over there, but Hammer intel has picked up signals suggesting an armored battalion–good luck.”

GARAS would also be the answer to Devin’s question about Strategic Recon assets. Add in some unmanned sensor arrays and, if possible, some intel assets (ie civs with phones), the Hussars should be able to keep an eye on any number of bad guys–and have fun in the process!

62

I was thinking in terms of a fusor “assault gun,” but a SPAG would also work, as it analogs to the mortars most mounted recon units have for ‘get out of trouble’ fire support.

63

Yeah, on re-reading your posts more closely, I realized that your Fire Support Troop was an attempt at firepower intermediate between what the Grav IFVs already had and the full-scale artillery of the SPAGs; but I think the last few posts resolved that there really isn’t such a middle tier – just squad support, vehicular-scale (platoon support), and artillery-scale (company support and up). I think the grav tank, as it’s been refined by Chris Moeller and yourself in this thread, probably fills the role of fusor “assault gun.”

Now, as both you and Devin (“Zabieru”) have noted, the Light Infantry Company doesn’t have Grav IFVs, just unarmed GUSses, so they need organic indirect fire of some kind – in game terms, probably a sled mounting a SCREM missile launcher.

I printed out and went through your TO&Es closely over the weekend, and there are many good ideas there I’ll implement in a revised version of the Excel spreadsheet. To pick out the biggest ones:

  1. Give every company organic support; you’ve sold me on this. Certainly the things the unit needs right there to keep fighting – ammo resupply, repair – should be part of the unit, if only so the Hammer loadmasters know to drop those elements with the first wave!

What I’ve currently got in the BASE should be redesigned to reflect only those elements are deployable but not slated as part of an assault drop, such as clerks and Comfort Section. This means splitting construction engineers from combat engineers (rather than having both in one company, as you’ve proposed). The fighting HQ / forward TOC should probably even be split from the planning HQ / staff. Which leads us to…

  1. You gave the Recon Company commander an armored fighting vehicle instead of the command variant of the utility vehicle. I think this is the right model for all the infantry units, actually, to let the commander fight at the front line with his personal squad – just as the tank company and cavalry company commander already have their own personal fighting machine and wingman. This fits the medieval nature of Iron Empires a lot better than having the captain of an infantry unit sitting back in his command post vehicle.

  2. Your redesigned artillery battery is very good. I think I need to focus much more on C4ISR (command, control, communications, computers, intelligence, surveillance, and reconaissance) for this unit than I have, because even a generous allocation of command-variant armored utility sleds (GAUS-Cs) isn’t adequate for a unit whose main job is probably going to be duelling with enemy Hammer overhead.

  3. Infantry squads need at least one assistant squad leader - probably two, so you can split into three teams – rather than simply making the squad support weapons guys corporals and somehow asking them to lead teams as well as lay down massive firepower.

64

That makes me think of giving platoon-level or even squad-level scout-snipers a small grav bike to scout ahead. I’m thinking of an open-seat “broomstick” model, like a cut-down version of the “speeder bikes” in Star Wars, rather than the larger enclosed-seat “bullet bike.” See the Grav Bikes page on the wiki for more on the differences – in game terms a “bullet bike” counts as a vehicle, a “broomstick bike” only as personal equipment. When not in use, it could be folded up and stowed in the Grav IFV.

65

Never. Gonna. Convince. Me. Task-organization to meet the situation will (almost) always have to happen, but every deviation from the baseline organization makes matters more complicated when the golden rule of getting things to work in the chaos of combat is KISS: “keep it simple, stupid.” If your companies are going to fight as combined-arms units, you want them organized as combined arms units all the time – rather than organize them one way in the expectation that they’ll fight another way.

The corporal your grunts bunk next to in garrison should be the same guy who leads them out of cover into enemy fire. The lieutenant your grunts go to when they ask for a weekend pass or get disciplined for drinking should be the same guy who leads them in the field. The captain your lieutenants go to about discrepancies in their platoon property book should be the same guy who commands their platoons in battle. You train together, you live together, you get drunk together, you get in trouble together, and then you’ll know each other well enough to put it on the line for each other in combat, and just what the other guy is about to do and what you need to do to help him survive doing it, without thinking about it for seconds you don’t have.

The US Army saw the light on this in 2003, when it started to replace pure-tank and pure-infantry battalions with the new modular combined-arms battalions. Even earlier, the Stryker brigades were organized with combined arms companies. Given that the evolution of modern warfare has been pretty consistently to devolve greater firepower, mobility, and operational independence to ever-smaller units, which requires those small units to be ever more self-sufficient, I don’t see the Iron Empires having anything other than combined-arms companies.

Now a pure-infantry or a pure-tank or pure-recon company is much easier to administer in barracks, and probably cheaper, since you can centralize the particular support required by each type and get efficiencies of scale. Presumably that’s why the Hotok sodalis company is organized into a company of Iron, a company of Anvil armored infantry, and a company of vehicular and support troops. But I think the Faith Conquers graphic novel established the leadership of that battalion as distinctly below par, and much more focused on smooth functioning in garrison than on victory in battle. [li] Combined-arms companies are harder to manage in barracks but much easier to operate in the field.
[/li]
[*] Also, the company commanders are called “lieutenants.” That’s odd.

66

Fair enough, but if KISS is the rule, then to&e companies are going to violate it because you never know what kind of attachments you’ll need. One time it might be engineers, another time tanks, recon yet another, and light infantry another time. So, then wouldn’t it be best to give every company one platoon of each type? Just to be on the safe side, no?

Task organization works quite well within battalions and brigades where habitual attachments are the norm; Company 1 always works with Tank Platoon #1, etc. This allows an Anvil Lord to keep his critical, rare, and expensive combat assets massed, but still support when and where he needs to.

Trying to min-max a company for every possible mission is, in my view, a violation of the KISS rule, setting up manpower, maintenance, and supply nightmares, especially in combat where you don’t need tem. Also, many of these extra platoons would get left out of the fight, especially the lightly armed scout platoons, or else thrown into fights they aren’t prepared for–this is why there are specialist units, to protect assets from misuse.

And I am having a hard time visualising how all these companies would be fighting nearly-independently, keep thinking they would get cut-off and defeated in detail.

I also think cost and availability of units is an issue in the Iron Empires, which are slowly technologically devolving, there’s only so much Iron, so many GARAS, so many SPAGs, and production is not what it once was. (Or am I misunderstanding the canon?)

But agreement ain’t the point, discussion and the exchange of ideas is!

67

Well said. I don’t think we can say much more to convince each other, so it’s time to shrug, smile, and move on.

I also think cost and availability of units is an issue in the Iron Empires, which are slowly technologically devolving, there’s only so much Iron, so many GARAS, so many SPAGs, and production is not what it once was.

Very much so, as I understand the setting. Production of all these items continues, but at ever-lower rates and quality, with one production line after another eventually going dark over the years.

Chris, can you enlighten us?

68

It’s not so much that production is dropping as it is that progress has stalled. There are new factories being built all the time, each making new copies of a century-old product. Innovation exists, but it’s of the “let’s stick existing item A onto existing item B to make a cool hybrid C” variety, rather than any sort of fundamental rethinking.

It’s more accurate to say that scientific progress is what’s gone. Engineering skills remain strong. Manufacture is a priority. But the engineers and manufacturers are looking backward, not innovating in fundamental ways.

Chris

69

Another major dynamic in the Iron Empires is decreasing versatility. Iron is Iron. Is today’s Iron as good as that of two hundred years ago? Well, actually, probably almost as good. It’s lost a bit of technological capability but gained some design refinements, so while it’s downhill from here on, Iron tech is coasting pretty smooth.

But back in the golden ages, most of the tech that went into Iron was well-understood by all sorts of military-industrial complex sorts. You could build an Avatar for your submarine, to handle sonar. You could use lightweight armor tech from Iron on your bullet bikes. Now, the only people who understand any of that are the armorer’s guilds. Most, though not all, of the tech still exists, but it’s only understood by specific people, and they only use or understand it in certain ways.

EDIT: You know, if I had Pete’s sig I could skip this, but the above is opinion based on limited observations. Listen to Chris not me. Vitamins are good for you.

70

There’s got to be an economic impact, though, of a century-plus of stalemated succession wars. And centuries of losing world after world to the Vaylen wouldn’t just make the Iron Empires smaller than the old Federated Empire – it would make them poorer as well, as once-thriving trade routes are cut off.

Plus it is canon that a lot of worlds have slid backwards on the Tech Index scale, isn’t it?

71

Devin makes a good point about knowledge being confined to guilds that don’t talk to one another, jealously guarding their secrets and passing them down from generation to generation.

Sydney, absolutely there’s an economic slide, but on a world for world basis, there are still fabulously wealthy and productive industrial worlds. The drop in index is a result of the inability to manufacture high index goods. The lower you get on the scale, the simpler things are to make (think Soviet philosophy on industry… they made tons of stuff, but it was simple compared to what was being built in the west) Remember the notorious MiG-25 Foxbat, built with vacuum tubes compared to its rival the F-15? It was in many ways a comparable fighter, but a step down on Earth’s tech index.

72

Oh! I hadn’t even thought of the Soviet defense industry – or its post-1991 remnant, the Russian defense industry – as a model for a low-tech production base trying to replicate high-tech goods. That’s a fascinating thought.

73

Best. Thread. Ever.

Just sayin’
Billy

74

Just to expand:

The Soviets/Russians have very good engineers, but they’re hamstrung by low-tech and often low-quality components – and by sheer poverty, post-1991. As a result, their most ambitious designs often end up failing because of shoddy implementation, while less ambitious designs that account better for the actual capabilities of their industrial base do much better. Compare the global success of the AK-47 to the much more limited use of the AK-72 (how many people have even HEARD of this weapon?), or the Korean and Vietnam War victories of the unsophisticated MiG-17 to the troubles of their higher-tech fighters late in the Cold War, like the MiG-25 Foxbat.

Conversely, high-tech, high-quality components often have to be imported, in small numbers. Apparently, if the Soviets could buy, say, only 96 of a particular kind of gyroscope from the US, they’d use 16 for research and then use the rest to build 80 nuclear missiles of a particular type (to aim at the US) – and that’d be the end of the production run for that missile, which is why the Soviets had so many more different types of ICBMs than we did.

I’d imagine you’d see the same kinds of problems in the Iron Empires:

  1. huge production runs of a limited number of models of robust, Low Index or even Zero Index hardware, not innovative, but very solidly designed, with a full appreciation for what the industrial base can actually turn out.
  2. a fair number of ambitious and unsatisfactory attempts to replicate High Index systems with a Low Index production base, kept in service because they cost so much the Forged Lord in question can’t afford to replace them.
  3. a bewildering profusion of different models of High Index systems, or Low Index systems with High Index components, with production runs kept small by the limited availability of critical parts.
75

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Unit Strengths in BE
Iron TO&E

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Hussars - filling a gap in Iron Empires
Burning Hotok and other Fortress Worlds

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Self-Propelled Artillery
LASH (Laser Shield)
Mobile Infantry Grav Packs

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76

Baron Freedberg’s Guide to the Iron Empires.

77

As Sydney gets his Anvil generator nailed down, I’ve started thinking about what kinds and how many companies an Anvil Battalion would have.

In another post on another thread, Chris stated Anvil Battalions “can be anywhere from 3-10+ Companies in strength, depending on the specifics of the title the commanding Lord is granted.” (Yes I quote and yes I am a fanboy—deal with it!)

Excepting the 10+ (which would be in Forged Lord territory), this gives us 6 companies as a median battalion size (and would be the Anvil Affiliation 2D, 1D would be 3 companies and 3D would be 9 companies). And as many of Syd’s companies are pushing over the 200 personnel figure, this gives us battalions in the 1,000 personnel range, large enough to be an effective force, but not large enough to threaten a Forged Lord’s planetary dominance.

Syd has posited 10 different types of companies:

Light Infantry
Security
Armored Infantry
Iron
Scout
Cavalry (Troop)
Hussar (Troop)
Tank
Artillery (Battery)
Sapper

A “standard” (if there is really such a thing) Anvil Battalion would have three of the same type of company as “line” companies, for which the battalion will be designated, with three other differing companies for combat support.

The exact mix of companies would depend upon what the Anvil Lord’s resources can bear and what his Liege Lord wants. In game play each company would have a Resources number, which would add up, and the organization would have to be negotiated with the GM. Each battalion would therefore be different, but I’ve put some generic examples below as points of departure.

Examples:

An Anvil Battalion with 3 Light Infantry, 1 Scout, 1 Sapper, and 1 Security companies would be designated an “Infantry Battalion,” intended to clear and hold built up areas and rough terrain.

An Anvil with 3 Armored Infantry, 1 Scout, 1 Tank, and 1 Artillery companies would be an “Armored Infantry Battalion” for main combat operations.

3 Tank, 1 Cavalry, 1 Sapper, and 1 Artillery companies would be a “Tank Battalion” for direct fire dominance on the battlefield

A “Cavalry Battalion (or Squadron)”: 3 Cavalry, 1 Armored Infantry, 1 Tank, and 1 Artillery companies would screen and conduct reconnaissance for a larger force.

An “Armored Cavalry or Hussar Squadron” (rare): 3 Hussar, 1 Cavalry, 1 Tank, and 1 Artillery companies would do the same as Cavalry, but is much better able to do both and fight for information.

“Iron Battalion” (also rare): 3 Iron, 1 Hussar, 1 Tank, 1 Artillery companies, nuff said.

I see Iron as pretty rare, with most of it concentrated in the hands of the Lords-Pilot officers in the Anvil Battalion, including the Anvil Lord’s household. Having an entire Iron Company would be a ‘big deal,’ and Iron Battalion would be the force of a Forged Lord. In Faith Conquers, if I read the symbols correctly, the Hotok Fortress has an entire Iron Regiment assigned, but it is an important place and this was for an exercise, so all the Iron on planet may well have been consolidated into one unit under the Marshall.

You can go on making up your own battalions from here, but I don’t see Security, Scout, or Sapper Battalions as these types of companies don’t have a lot of combat staying power and are best as support companies. Artillery Battalions on the other hand are a possibility, especially for manning those Fortresses I’ve heard so much about!

78

Yeah, I like 1D affiliation = 3 companies, 2D = 6 companies, 3D = 9 companies. I think your mixes of company types make a lot of sense, too. I might throw in more Armored Infantry to the Tank Battalionl; I’m not sure what’d come out to make room for it, though.

Chris Moeller ok’d my posting some notes he passed along a while back. Note that this is “Chris the guy with the best ideas thinking out loud,” not “Chris the creator laying down canon forever and ever, amen.”

ANVIL

Battalion classes: Iron, Anvil, Infantry, Armored, Cavalry, Mechanized, Marine, Artillery, Assault, Air Superiority, Security, Combat Engineer, Irregular (all can be made grav-mobile)

Iron: Designed as an elite line unit. Primarily heavy infantry platoons equipped with Iron. Extremely expensive to maintain and field.

Anvil: The most common line unit. Primarily rifle platoons equipped with Anvil armor.

Infantry: The lowest form of Anvil unit. Unarmored infantry with limited ability to fight in hostile off-world environments.

Armored: Rare to find dedicated Armored Battalions. Some wealthy lords field fully armored battalions, but usually Battalions will field a number of Armored platoons to support their line companies.

Cavalry: Fast armored units (Hussars), with a strong infantry component. More common than full Armored Battalions. Features combined arms with an emphasis on sensors, signals and mobility.

Mechanized: Heavier armored units with a strong infantry component. Combined arms with emphasis on hitting power and total mechanization/grav mobility. A greater proportion of armor and artillery than a Cavalry or simple Grav-Mobile Battalion

Marine: only fielded by Forged Lords at Battalion strength. Usually Hammer Lords field their own organic security and boarding troops.

Artillery: Rare to find dedicated artillery battalions. Usually battalions will field a number of Artillery platoons to support their line companies.

Assault: Unheard of outside of the Forged Lord/Royal holdings. Designed to work in tandem with Hammer assets to project military power to off-world targets, including Drop Troops and Anvil Insertion vehicles. Totally self-sufficient fighting force.

Air Superiority: Anvil units fielding grav-armor designed primarily for anti-armor missions. A very specialized battalion, expensive to maintain and not suited for plundering one’s neighbors, hence found primarily on interior worlds.

Security: Rare to find dedicated Security Battalions. Usually battalions will field a platoon or two of Security troops. But there are titles given out for Security battalions, and they have the added bonus of providing the lord with police officers in peacetime.

Combat Engineer: Another type usually found in small numbers organically within battalions. Titles for full Combat Engineering Battalions are primarily found in the interior.

Irregular: This isn’t an official classification, but encompasses all of the oddly composed fighting units that the border lords often field. Mixed forces of all types, with assorted vehicles, myriad fighting systems and ad hoc logistical support.

TYPICAL SIZE OF AN ANVIL BATTALION

Anvil Battalion (Royal or Guard)
up to 50 Companies, 150 platoons: 5000 men (450 vehicles)

Anvil Battalion (Forged)
5-10 Companies, 15-30 platoons: 500-1000 men (45-90 vehicles)

Anvil Battalion
2-5 Companies: 6-15 platoons: 200-500 men (18-45 vehicles)

79

P.S. Chris’s estimating about 100 men in three platoons per company. My TO&E generator gives 150-250 personnel in six platoons per company. I suspect the difference is that I’m pretty fastidious about counting the support troops (logistics, scouts, artillery gunners and ordnance techs, etc. etc. etc.), whereas Chris here is estimating the number of front-line combat troops.

80

Chris here is estimating the number of front-line combat troops.

Baron Freedberg is correct.

-chris