Few months ago we started a campaign where we decided we wanted young characters and thusly set the max lifepaths at three. I made a noble born with one court lifepath and then neophyte sorcerer. Because of low resources and little time in learning I decided on only starting with one spell, 2 sorcery and 4 will. Casting one spell can be fun enough, but he has chanced upon a spellbook and recently finished the required study to get started on practicals.
One of those spells is Magic Whistle, the ob 1 spell. The first practical for that spell would still be Obstacle 7, and having to cast it 6 diffrent times(with reducing obstacles).
Do you have any ideas on how to make this learning process of a young wizard less cataclysmic?
Also for me to actually get a test, it has to be a worthwhile situation, preferably with some conflict and tension. The impossibility of success and little reward, versus the random risk makes it hard to justify.
I really like how Burning Wheel models a character that is young and inexperienced, how they increase quickly in skill etc. I’m finding it hard to model the learning of spells at this exponent/age though. Starting with a bigger spellbook would ofcourse have solved much of this, even if it would have been unlikeley that he’d be able to cast it (much less learn it through practicals).
Maybe lobby for 7 years of downtime and retroactively add the Sorceror lifepath ;D Or practice sorcery for 7 years… would get my Sorcery up to 3, almost 4.
TLDR: Read bold text and hard to justify rolling(and intent) with “guatanteed” failure, especially 6 times.
With help it does get alot easier, and casting carefully in the above example would get +1D (max spell obstacle but would help much more on other spells)
Always with help and spending long time casting though I find it harder to justify the intent of casting it 6 times, because each of them would likely be a scene of its own. Could the intent just be “I want to cast this spell to learn how it works, (and survive it(if previous high obstacles are true))” Seems very close to testmongering. But maybe be more lenient with spellls? Or especially when learning?
Immidiately I’m thinking: Learn something- some things…
Test Sorcery, Will, Perception (and Forte) and earn Artha before you go for practicals to learn new spells. I don’t think Sorcery-B2 characters should learn new spells (at least not on their own). Also, I’m thinking there’s a lot of sub-text that suggests that Artha should be spent on Sorcery. While it might take a while for it to grey out, sorceror-characters may be ‘forced’ - or at least heavily encouraged to spend artha for Sorcery. Artha is a vital part of BW, so it would be very wrong to not consider it.
I’m a bit on shaky ground on the following, but I think it’s valid: Get Instruction! Lone, untrained Sorcerors in History (i.e. Fiction) always have “cataclysmic challenges”. Sorcery aren’t meant to be “safe” - safe like carpentry, animal husbandry or shooting a bow. Also, help and safety measures like circles/tools/staffs and off course being careful should be remedies for the, not unreasonably perceived inherent danger of casting spells one do not Know & Master.
Trusting your luck should be an option to consider,and one often taken by those aspiring mages in History (again I mean Fiction). 1/3 for something “cataclysmic” to happen (unless the GM gives really hard ‘failiure options’) and I’m sure there’s some positive results to be gained from “magical (mis)fortunes”. Also, maybe just some common peasants will suffer!? A demon might thank you for releasing/summoning it, then tear your brother-knight in two for good measure. A garbled transmission might set the forest on fire, but for someone who deals with the foul minions and markings of Sorcery, surely that’s not “cataclysmic”? (Again, I think magic should be dangerous, but off course not only for the magician.) “Trusting your luck” might include “trusting safety measures and the ability of your friends to deal with Problems of Your Doing”.
[/b]Also for me to actually get a test, it has to be a worthwhile situation, preferably with some conflict and tension. The impossibility of success and little reward, versus the random risk makes it hard to justify.[/b]
Write Beliefs that enforce it! Write a Belief that state you will talk your sister into marrying your friend, then I’m sure your Persuasion-B" will surely want to be bolstered by a spell. Write a Belief that says “Nothing will go untested to discover the Blood Forest’s Secret!”
(note that getting traits like “reckless” voted on as a young, sourcerous apprentice might be pretty likely.
Sorry, but borrowed PC makes me have to leave. Will return. Interesting thread!
This is ofcourse entirely valid, that to start with a character that doesn’t need training, you probably should get either a broad enough spell book (nevermind trying to figure out how you learned them) or a high enough sorcery skill.
But often, garnering dice for one test so that you atleast have a decent chance is workable. I have more problem justifying the tests themselves, and doing it on so many occasions, with such small chances of success.
I’m interested in what other people do in order to get their practicals out of the way. Is it ok to just go behind the shed and try a spell to get a practical out of the way(since the failure of the roll is baked into the system)? I know that wouldn’t sit well in our game atm.
Do you require the same situations for getting a sorcery/spell practical as you do with other rolls? It seems a stretch to actually survive learning something like Philosopher’s Perch.
I really like how Burning Wheel models a character that is young and inexperienced, how they increase quickly in skill etc. I’m finding it hard to model the learning of spells at this exponent/age though. Starting with a bigger spellbook would ofcourse have solved much of this, even if it would have been unlikeley that he’d be able to cast it (much less learn it through practicals).
Maybe lobby for 7 years of downtime and retroactively add the Sorceror lifepath ;D Or practice sorcery for 7 years… would get my Sorcery up to 3, almost 4.
TLDR: Read bold text and hard to justify rolling(and intent) with “guatanteed” failure, especially 6 times.
I really don’t find it problematic that young and inexperienced sorcerors are in trouble when venturing out on their own. I also love that if you use Rps to buy spells for you spellbook*, you’ve left out friends and good equipment and are probably living in a shed. Instead of lobbying for down-time, I’d just say up front that I’d like 4-5 LP characters. Not all characters fit all campaigns.
I do agree that it’s a struggle, but I really enjoy the struggle - as my (fantasy) gaming experience has been with younglings that easily get to command nature and (small) gods*. In my non-fantasy gaming, decent rational characters of age, wisdom and education fry their brains or loose a grip on reality by even attempting something unorthodox, like reading a scroll out load of thinking that the voices can be contacted/appeased by a ritual…
am reading Pratchett’s “Sourcery”, that will explain any misspellings of sorcery.
Also, am I right in thinking that tests can be earned by Instruction and a mentor? For me, that would explain how some start with a large spellbook, sore knees and no friends.
On the “hard to justify rolling for failure”-bit, I must say that it’s not something exclusive to Sorcerors. I’m not certain your estimate that you will fail six times in a row is correct either:
Even though I think that Sorcerors with average Will and a base understanding of Sorcery*, I am pretty sure we’re not looking at six straitght failiures. As I recall, the tests will be decreasing in difficulty, so the last two should be quite possible even without Artha. Even with a B2 - three Persona and a Fate will garner four more dice. Even without acknowledging that they’re open-ended we’re looking at a 1:64 chance, which everyone who has played Blood Bowl will attest in quite a frequent experience. Casting carefully will gain another die, and I really can’t see how one’ll haven’t gotten at least one advance in Sorcery before attemting to learn a spell. Suddenly the odds aren’t so bad, and a soldier testing spear will probably get just as hurtfull results - All The Time! - as opposed to 1:3
In the MB B2 is commented on beeing “just enough to get oneself into trouble”.
(my bolding of test)
I’m thinking that a common fantasy trope-scene would be a fledling Sorceror having his friends (either invited or lurking in the bushes) watch a ritual (almost always go wrong). Then the friends help deal with the consequences of the misfired spell, before they berate the inexperienced sorceror.
I’m all to aware that not all campaigns have this option. In (the setting of) Warhammer or another ;), one could easily be just skewered by a crossbow bolt if the friends even thought there was vile sorcery afoot. Even so, a scene were the rest of the PCs are placed in the forest nearby - or in the village were that foul beast summoned from the nether realms will enter, could be fun. Also, I enjoy how BW makes even that nightly thieving raids fun (i.e. “interesting”) for the other players.
GM: “Fail this and you’ll be cursed so that all missiles sent in your general direction will hit you!”
As I’ve mentioned, I’m thinking Beliefs written with the proper Imperative will garner the need for tests! Testing the new, not-exactly-fully-mastered, spell would probably be an excellent way of portraying a Sorceror (i.e. one willing to deal with demonic forces).
Surving spell failiures are often by pure luck or friends according to the Tropes. However, beeing prepared should also be an option for the more careful dealer-in-demonic-forces. Practicing Philosopher’s Perch in the hay loft, over water or even in the bed-room of a peeing Princess could be options to remedy simple miscasts of Philosopher’s Perch. Having a well and/or buckets filled with water is probably a good idea as well. As Goethe and Disney showed us, having the abilty to circle up a master is just as important as beeing skilled yourself.
I too, am interested in hearing how people go about their practicals. It would seem that downtiming Sorcery/spell-learning is not the same as practicing one’s martial skills.
I agree with the power level, the sorcerer in question has 2 spells he’s finished first reading on, one’s ob1 (Magic Whistle) the other is ob3 (Spirit Servant)
I’m mainly interested in what other groups allow when learning spells, aka casting practicals. What kind of situations other GMs allow their sorceror a test.
ATM I will probably just have to “lie” and say I want to impress everyone with a simple spell I’ve been studying (magic missile) even if it’s 3dice vs ob7.
I guess practicing and maybe getting an instructor is the best option until I’m closer to having a decent success chance.
More spesifically, I’m interested in hearing how you (can) go about getting test for sorcerous practicals in a setting that do not suffer a witch to live?
An answer is off course when the others are out cold, and you’re desperate in saving them. I do think I agree with what I think OlavBB is saying, in that it’s boring (or rather CAN be boring) to listen to the sorceror-player just doodling with secretive private-stuff - that will really change, if not end the campaign!
Practicals have to come with valid intent. In other words, your test must move the story forward. If it doesn’t, it only counts as practice for Sorcery.
I’m not saying that the sorcerer can’t engineer situations, but they have to be legit. Tell him to write Beliefs or Instincts about learning the spells. Then provide him with opposition to that Belief (in the context of your world). That way, you’re playing the game and you’re both being rewarded.
I really don’t think OlavBB will complain if I use his thread to ask:
How can a neophyte sorceror justify learning new spells in a setting were a witch will be burned? (and his fellow PCs aren’t sorcerors themselves)
I’ve covered the "write Beliefs that force you to cast spells:
[quote="“Earlier post”]
Write Beliefs that enforce it! Write a Belief that state you will talk your sister into marrying your friend, then I’m sure your Persuasion-B" will surely want to be bolstered by a spell. Write a Belief that says “Nothing will go untested to discover the Blood Forest’s Secret!”[/QUOTE]
I do agree that BITs will help force tests for learning a new spell!
BELIEF: My father will go to war against [Duke Malfleur], even if I have to cast a new formulae to force him to!
INSTINCT: Never care about witnesses when casting my [new spell]!
TRAIT: Recklessy inquisitive
Is there other options for engineering good oppourtunities for casting spells? Combat-related one’s might benefit from combat-situations, sure. I’m guessing insisting on talking to the old high-Willed crone on the hill might be an oppourtunity to try out the new “Arcane Friendship”…
and hard to justify rolling(and intent) with “guatanteed” failure, especially 6 times.
A demon might thank you for releasing/summoning it, then tear your brother-knight in two for good measure. A garbled transmission might set the forest on fire, but for someone who deals with the foul minions and markings of Sorcery, surely that’s not “cataclysmic”? (Again, I think magic should be dangerous, but off course not only for the magician.) “Trusting your luck” might include “trusting safety measures and the ability of your friends to deal with Problems of Your Doing”.
