Celanawe and the Fox/Lieam and the Owl

Spoilers

In Winter 1152 Celanawe and Lieam battle an Owl and whilst Celanawe is killed in the ensuing conflict Lieam is able to kill the Owl using the Black Axe. Also in The Black Axe (1115) Celanawe is able to kill a fully grown Fox also using the Black Axe.

However if we look at the rules of the Mouse Guard RPG both of these feats are impossible (At least in terms of using conventional weapons). An owl is 2 steps higher on the Natural Order and the Fox is 3 steps higher.

The rules state that you can only kill something 1 step higher, injure something 2 steps higher and run off something 3 steps higher. So how can we explain within the context of the Mouse Guard RPG and its limitations on killing “monstrous predators” how both Celanawe and Lieam are able to kill something that ordinarily they wouldn’t be able to kill.

Is this a special property of the Black Axe that has not been explored? It allows you to ignore the normal limitations imposed by the natural order? And if so how would we explain this special ability in terms of the rules? Is it a magical property (I myself don’t like this explanation) or is the Black Axe just so well forged that it allows the user to kill things it is otherwise prohibited from killing? And if it were just a case of it being well forged what is to stop other weapons of its kind being made?

Or is there something obvious I am missing, is it a simple case of Celanawe and Lieam using things other than Fighting/Hunting to dispatch their foe? I know that the Fox gets caught in the Brambles in its eagerness to kill Celanawe and Conrad allowing Celanawe to score the killing blow but this is not dependent on any roll that Celanawe would otherwise make? And Lieam kills the owl purely by jumping on its back and stabbing it enough times to ground it before taking up the Black Axe and delivering the final blow?

I am just interested to know how these feats are accomplished in relation to the limitations placed on players in Mouse Guard.

Spoilers

In Winter 1152 Celanawe and Lieam battle an Owl and whilst Celanawe is killed in the ensuing conflict Lieam is able to kill the Owl using the Black Axe. Also in The Black Axe (1115) Celanawe is able to kill a fully grown Fox also using the Black Axe.

However if we look at the rules of the Mouse Guard RPG both of these feats are impossible (At least in terms of using conventional weapons). An owl is 2 steps higher on the Natural Order and the Fox is 3 steps higher.

The rules state that you can only kill something 1 step higher, injure something 2 steps higher and run off something 3 steps higher. So how can we explain within the context of the Mouse Guard RPG and its limitations on killing “monstrous predators” how both Celanawe and Lieam are able to kill something that ordinarily they wouldn’t be able to kill.

Is this a special property of the Black Axe that has not been explored? It allows you to ignore the normal limitations imposed by the natural order? And if so how would we explain this special ability in terms of the rules? Is it a magical property (I myself don’t like this explanation) or is the Black Axe just so well forged that it allows the user to kill things it is otherwise prohibited from killing? And if it were just a case of it being well forged what is to stop other weapons of its kind being made?

Or is there something obvious I am missing, is it a simple case of Celanawe and Lieam using things other than Fighting/Hunting to dispatch their foe? I know that the Fox gets caught in the Brambles in its eagerness to kill Celanawe and Conrad allowing Celanawe to score the killing blow but this is not dependent on any roll that Celanawe would otherwise make? And Lieam kills the owl purely by jumping on its back and stabbing it enough times to ground it before taking up the Black Axe and delivering the final blow?

I am just interested to know how these feats are accomplished in relation to the limitations placed on players in Mouse Guard.

No idea why it decided to Double Post, nor how to delete this thread.

IGNORE

The Black Axe gives you a +1 Nature Scale Bonus afaik.

That would then explain Lieam killing the Owl but not Celanawe the Fox. Can he gain an additional bonus to Nature Scale from some other source?

Not that I know of. Remember that the RPG was designed to emulate the comics, but that comics publisher after the game don’t necessarily follow the RPG rules. I think David Petersen somewhere said something [[citation needed]] about not wanting to limit what his characters can accomplish. Like, you know, a heroic mouse killing a fox without having to raise an army to do it for him.

So would people agree then that the Natural Order rules should be followed for the most part but in exceptional circumstances the GM should allow them to be ignored for the purposes of allowing Player Characters to accomplish things similar to Celanawe killing the fox?

I’d just follow the rules of the game.

Whilst under normal circumstances I would agree and be happy to follow the rules as written the fact remains that the comics have already set a precedent for mice being able to kill creatures 2/3 times higher than a mouse on the Natural Order. Would it not be woefully unfair to tell Players that whilst Celanawe in the comics was able to slay a Fox they themselves would never under any circumstances be able to accomplish this sort of feat? Roleplay is part wish fulfillment and part of that wish fulfillment is being able to become as heroic and legendary as the characters portrayed in the comics. It seems harsh and premature to just say, “Nope can’t be done. You will never be as awesome as Celanawe.”

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Petersen cheated :wink:

Seems as good an explanation as any :stuck_out_tongue:

Jon, I agree that exceptional circumstances would be a good reason to bend those rules.

For myself, I would allow as little as a squad of cunning hunters to take down a fox when commanded by a patrol; however, that would have to come after a few sessions in which the fox really made a presence. It might be a fox they see in successive years and have craftily marked his territory and tactics to ensure they are aware of strengths and weaknesses.

As another note, the animal would have to be a legitimate threat to their relationships. I wouldn’t allow it just for a predator that threatens a town; they’d have to get the vision for how that predator threatens multiple relationships in the patrol as well as illustrate the need to cull it from the Territories in order to preserve those relationships.

On that note, I would highlight the difference between the comics and the game environments. In the comics, Petersen gets to set the stakes of tension, conflict, and climax. In the game, the PCs and GM should collaborate to generate tension, resolve conflict, and seek climactic moments.

So, if the patrol wants to kill large beasts, I’d encourage them to find the conflict in mustering, training, and leading an army of mice or at least find conflict in the science and ethics of large dose poisons, traps, snares, and nets. Otherwise, why not play a game that enables dragon-slaying?

Trust the trules. Use them.

Thank you Kendesign this is exactly the kind of response I was hoping for.

It definitely helps with how one would go about making such an encounter, making the threat of the beast not just about the physical damage it can cause but the emotional trauma it can threaten to create to character relationships and the like. I have not actually had chance myself to play or run a game of Mouse Guard yet and have only recently read the comics so the importance of relationships and how predators can effect that is something I have not yet experienced in terms of actually roleplaying within the Universe of Mouse Guard, but its importance is definitely highlighted in the conversations on this forum.

But in essence your reply answers any questions I would have about how to implement the danger and perhaps subsequent death of such a large threat within the confines of a small Patrol.

We released special rules for the Black Axe in the New Rules, New Missions supplement!

I cheated…in terms of the game rules. Hopefully I still made a good story