In a conflict a character can’t decide he wants to change the conflict type mid-conflict. But, what about this situation:
A mouse with the Fiery trait and with the belief that “violence solves most problems” finds himself in an argument conflict. He’s losing and quickly becoming very angry. His player says, “I want to draw my blade and attack”.
How would I, as the GM, handle that? Would I say he is effectively surrendering to his opponent and he loses the argument without compromise and that he can now start a fight conflict? He can’t do that until the Player’s Turn right?
I’m just playing out different scenarios in my head, trying to get a mastery of the rules, before my first session this Wednesday evening.
Handle it with roleplay. The player should choose Feint or Maneuver and you can award the +1s Intimidation bonus for drawing his sword. Actually, a poorly-chosen Feint would be a great way to throw the conflict. Maneuver could set up a dismissing Attack.
Perhaps the Fight conflict could be the result of the compromise, but that might be a stretch depending on the stated Conflict goals. Otherwise, just have the NPC walk away. If the player wants a different result then the argument yielded, he’s going to have to spend a check on it in the Players’ Turn. Don’t simply invalidate the result of the first conflict because the player got schooled.
In my opinion, if he is actually intent on stabbing the other guy, then yes he looses the argument without compromise, and then a subsequent fight conflict erupts. This would occur no matter what turn it happens to be in: To say otherwise would destroy any illusions of open-ended storytelling you are trying to generate.
Though if it was the GM turn I would think that declaring the free check in the player turn pre-forfeit if they go off rails like this would be reasonable…
Jason, your instincts are good. He loses the argument and you can go right into a fight. If it’s the gm’s turn, you can do a versus test or a conflict, your choice.
Thanks Luke - and everyone else - you’ve been very helpful. I think I’m reading for tonight’s game. I’m running a modified version of the Deliver the Mail mission.
Most the of the session tonight will be the players creating their own mice characters. They are all long time gamers and don’t fancy pre-gens. I’m cool with that, I think they’ll connect with their mice better if they’re their own creation.
My notes for the session are brief:
This mission is set in the early part of spring. It is cool and cloudy. Cold rain falls lightly in scattered areas across the Territories.
Gwendolyn summons the patrol leader to the Map Room and says, “The spring mail needs to be delivered to [insert a player’s hometown or the town of an enemy or friend].” She points out the village on the large map of the Territories on the wall in her map room and adds, “It should take your patrol about a day or so, barring any difficulties, to reach the village. Assemble your patrol and begin the mission as soon as possible. Report to me when you return. Good luck.” She then hands the character a hide bag full of mail.
Now the players write mission goals for their characters.
GM’s Turn
The Weather: As the patrol heads out from Lockhaven, tell them that it is an early spring day and the sky is dotted with grey clouds and a light, cool wind blows.
Wilderness Obstacle
Not long after Lockhaven disappears from view does it become apparent that the trail is covered in thick, melting snow. The patrol will have to make an Ob 4 Pathfinder test to successfully find the trail leading to their village destination.
Mice Obstacle
The patrol comes to a clearing and can see an overturned cart next to an oak tree. Up in the tree is terrified Archibald. Archibald was out harvesting shoots and was on his way back to his village when he stumbled upon a fox! Archibald has never been a courageous mouse and he panicked and climbed the nearest tree. The fox nudged his cart over, sniffed around the base of the oak for awhile, and then moved on. However, Archibald’s fear has kept him up the tree for the past hour and he’s still too terrified to climb down. The patrol will need to test Persuader vs. Archibald’s Will 4 to convince him that it is safe to climb down out of the tree.
Thanks Luke - and everyone else - you’ve been very helpful.
I think I’m ready for tonight’s game. I’m running a modified version of the Deliver the Mail mission. Most of the session will be my players creating their own mice characters. They’re long time gamers and don’t fancy pregens. That’s cool with me; I think they’ll appreciate their characters more.
My notes for the session are brief:
This mission is set in the early part of spring. It is cool and cloudy. Cold rain falls lightly in scattered areas across the Territories.
Gwendolyn summons the patrol leader to the Map Room and says, “The spring mail needs to be delivered to [insert a player’s hometown or the town of an enemy or friend].” She points out the village on the large map of the Territories on the wall in her map room and adds, “It should take your patrol about a day or so, barring any difficulties, to reach the village. Assemble your patrol and begin the mission as soon as possible. Report to me when you return. Good luck.” She then hands the character a hide bag full of mail.
Now the players write mission goals for their characters.
GM’s Turn
The Weather: As the patrol heads out from Lockhaven, tell them that it is an early spring day and the sky is dotted with grey clouds and a light, cool wind blows.
Wilderness Obstacle
Not long after Lockhaven disappears from view does it become apparent that the trail is covered in thick, melting snow. The patrol will have to make an Ob 4 Pathfinder test to successfully find the trail leading to their village destination.
Mice Obstacle
The patrol comes to a clearing and can see an overturned cart next to an oak tree. Up in the tree is terrified Archibald. Archibald was out harvesting shoots and was on his way back to his village when he stumbled upon a fox! Archibald has never been a courageous mouse and he panicked and climbed the nearest tree. The fox nudged his cart over, sniffed around the base of the oak for awhile, and then moved on. However, Archibald’s fear has kept him up the tree for the past hour and he’s still too terrified to climb down. The patrol will need to test Persuader vs. Archibald’s Will 4 to convince him that it is safe to climb down out of the tree.
Once the mail is delivered the GM’s Turn ends. The characters will most likely spend some of their checks investigating the fox that’s passed the scent border (unless a failed check brings the fox in the story in the GM’s Turn of course).
Luke, if I may: to spell this out explicitly within the rules of Mouse Guard, the player chooses to forfeit the argument conflict, and we presume this earns him a compromise in the form of the following fight (whether it’s a full-fledged conflict or just a versus test)? I don’t have my book on me right now, so I can’t check the rules for when a player wants to surrender in a conflict and see if it specifies that no compromise is awarded or if there is opportunity for one.
I ask because this opens an interesting opportunity. Perhaps this is the answer to the other thread asking about running away from a fight conflict. The players may opt to forfeit the fight conflict, and if they’ve earned a compromise, the compromise might be that they get a chance at a getaway (chase conflict or versus test). Of course, part of forfeiting a conflict means your opponent achieves his or her Intent (possibly modified by the terms of the compromise), so in certain conflicts forfeiting to switch gears – whether it’s to run away or draw your blade – might not be optimal anyway.
This situation doesn’t make sense to me. Why is the penalty for surrendering the argument the fight conflict that the player wants?
This could happen if the GM opts for it, but I see it as against the spirit of the game (i.e., the player is failing something and being rewarded with no penalty).
I agree, for surrendering the conflict by attacking, you should likely suffer a penalty in the fight conflict such as a condition (Tired or Angry perhaps from the loss in morale), the inability to use certain skills or gear, and/or a Disposition minus.
Perhaps I wasn’t as clear as I could have been. I was asking if the fight conflict is the compromise from the argument conflict. Of course, this may be something that would work better if the player doesn’t forfeit the argument outright, but rather tries to wear away as much disposition while making the case that he’ll draw steel if he loses the argument.
So, in short:
Argument conflict starts. Both sides test for disposition.
Argument conflict goes badly for the PC, but he manages to secure a concession despite losing.
The PC names a follow-up fight conflict as his compromise.
In other words, I presumed that the PC lost the argument and the other side won whatever intent or goal was declared at the beginning of the argument conflict, but now they had to face the angry PC mouse in a fight conflict.
Otherwise, I’m afraid it’s just not making sense to me how a player can demand a fight conflict after losing an argument. If it’s the Players’ Turn, I’d expect a check to be spent for the fight. If it’s the GM’s Turn, why am I awarding the player the fight conflict they want with my twist?
Depending on the opposition’s goal in the argument, this could get really wacky really fast. what if the opposition’s goal was to calm the PCs down and cause them to leave peacefully? How would this not be a total reversal of success?
I just re-read the compromise rules, and depending on the severity of the compromise it sounds like the losers may get their way partially or with the applications of conditions (as Serpine suggested), or both. Maybe the target of their argument goal (“Hand over the mayor’s daughter!”) leaves the immediate area (the bigpaw bandit tosses the bound girl over his shoulder and flees, leaving his guards to delay or capture the patrol) letting the fight conflict function as a complication to the plot, but not its ultimate resolution as the patrol had hoped. I believe this answers my question.
Also, I didn’t see anything in the compromise section about starting a subsequent conflict, with the winner of the first conflict gaining an advantage, such as reinforcements, or the loser gaining a disadvantage other than a condition. That was one of my thoughts but it was not explicitly mentioned in the book that I could see. Would this be in line with the rules?
To my understanding, the conflict mechanism is just an alternative to confronting the obstacle with either a simple single-test roll, or a complex multi-test solution.
So, if someone was to fail, you can follow-up with a twist … and the twist could be yet another conflict … or just a simple or complex roll of the dice.