Difficulty formulating Beliefs

Burning Wheel Subsystem Advice and Guidance
1

I ended up working on Beliefs with two of my players this evening rather than Sunday. It was difficult - we spent a bit over two hours on it - and I’m still unsure about some of them. One of the players is also having a very hard time coming up with Beliefs.

Situation: It’s a Dune-inspired campaign. The characters, all nobles of a minor House, arrive on the planet YerShari in the guise of a delegation making a state visit. In truth, they have been dispatched by their liege Great House to investigate allegations of treason: that House Zodagon is experimenting with thinking machines and advanced technology for use against the Imperium in the coming civil war. They also want to take over the planet from House Zodagon.

The Bene Gesserit’s (think ultra-humanist witch) Beliefs:
[ol]
[li]I will keep our purposes and intents secret (actively: we discussed this. She means covering up behind other players and the delegation, not passively avoiding the topic.)
[/li][li]I will investigate the potential of any thinking machines for human enhancement.
[/li][li]I will always be polite. (really an Instinct, but we were dead-ended)
[/li][/ol]

I love the second belief, because it contradicts everything the Bene Gesserit stand for and she knows it (she wants to go rogue). The first one, I wish I could elicit some clarification about, but she doesn’t feel she can be more precise than that. She wants to be able to respond adaptively and have it still apply to the Belief. I know the third Belief is an instinct; she was discussing replacing it with one about investigating Imperial contacts on the world.

The Assassin-Swordmaster’s Beliefs:
[ol]
[li]I will eliminate potential threats at the earliest opportunity.
[/li][li]In preparation for battle, I will conduct reconnaissance.
[/li][li](No third main belief yet.)
[/li][li](from Loyal trait) Always cover (the Bene Gesserit)'s back when in danger.
[/li][/ol]

The Assassin-Swordmaster is having difficulty formulating any kind of non-military challenge he wants his character to face, and I’m not sure how to help him. He wants to break and enter and gather intelligence. That’s all he’s got at the moment. He wants to be preparing for a War of Assassins or invasion, but isn’t sure how to formulate that beyond what he already has. And he intentionally wants to avoid too many social situations, as he doesn’t think his character would be suited to them or want to deal with them. The first Belief seems impossible to challenge to me; the second isn’t great but at least I can give him the opportunity to do what he says he wants to do.

Thoughts about how to help them?

2

My thoughts:

I will keep our purposes and intents secret (actively: we discussed this. She means covering up behind other players and the delegation, not passively avoiding the topic.)

This works much better as an Instinct, not just because of the phrasing but because of the way you can attack it. I mean, you can’t complete it or work toward it, you can only work away from it. “Always keep our purposes and intents secret.” Boom. If she does, and it causes trouble, artha.

I will always be polite. (really an Instinct, but we were dead-ended)

To make this more Belief-like, maybe “It is important to be courteous to others at all times - that way they’ll never suspect you.” It’s still a little subtle, but there are some fun ways you can attack that, like maybe throwing in an NPC with the Paranoid trait who gets suspicious of her politeness.

The Assassin-Swordmaster is having difficulty formulating any kind of non-military challenge he wants his character to face, and I’m not sure how to help him. He wants to break and enter and gather intelligence. That’s all he’s got at the moment.

Hey, man, that’s cool. He wants to start the game off running and gunning? Oblige him. That’s the game he wants. Just make sure his running and gunning is not cut and dry (which is usually pretty easy in Burning Wheel) and in a session or two he’ll have heartier Beliefs.

In preparation for battle, I will conduct reconnaissance.

This is actually fine, but make sure he’s specific about the battle. Otherwise it’s too close to an instinct.

(from Loyal trait) Always cover (the Bene Gesserit)'s back when in danger.

This is totally an Instinct.

3

I will eliminate potential threats at the earliest opportunity. …

And he intentionally wants to avoid too many social situations, as he doesn’t think his character would be suited to them or want to deal with them. The first Belief seems impossible to challenge to me.

That’s a fine Belief, actually. The way to attack it? Give him some threats to deal with. Maybe make a few of them sympathetic, or threats that also have something to offer if they can be persuaded… feel free to be very liberal with your definitions of “threat” and “eliminate.”

4

okay. You can work with this. Keep secret from who? What lengths is she willing to go to in protecting this secret? Will she betray things and people she values? This belief suggests what they are doing is risky and clandestine. So, you’re gonna need some NPCs handy who are searching for them. Ready to tempt and/or threaten.
[/li]

[li]I will investigate the potential of any thinking machines for human enhancement.[/li] The conflict with her order makes this sing. How are you going to highlight that? She wants to go rogue, so you need to make that a risky and costly choice.

[li]I will always be polite. (really an Instinct, but we were dead-ended)[/li]
meh. Definitely an instinct. To make a belief we need to know intent.

[li]I will eliminate potential threats at the earliest opportunity.[/li]weak sauce. Get him to declare an immediate threat and what he intends to do about it.

[li]In preparation for battle, I will conduct reconnaissance.[/li]another instinct. Reconnaissance where? When? Overcoming what obstacle? Despite what risk and/or whose objections?

The Assassin-Swordmaster is having difficulormulating any kind of non-military challenge he wants his character to face, and I’m not sure how to help him.QUOTE] Ask him to write a belief about the Bene Gesserit characte

[QUOTE]He wants to be preparing for a War of Assssins or invasion, but isn’t sure how to formulate that beyond what he already has.
“My sources tell me Commander Snark is preparing an invasion force. I will infiltrate his troops to learn his weakness.”

And he intentionally wants to avoid too many social situations, as he doesn’t think his character would be suited to them or want to deal with them.
That’s so cute.

The first Belief seems impossible to challenge to me
Really? Open in the middle of the reconaisance mission. Give him an opportunity to get some info for an advantage die for when Commander Snark attacks. There’s risk of course…Maybe the risk is the attack happens now!

These characters don’t Believe anything. What drives them? What are they passionate about and what are they going to do about it?

5

Yeah, it’s just bothering me that it doesn’t really jive with the Situation (which he liked). I’ll get creative, try to figure out ways for him to be shooting first and asking questions later while everyone else is at the gala schmoozing.

I think you’ve hit the nail on the head. They were trying to wrap their heads around their character, but their concepts were extraordinarily vague.

I’ve sent emails this morning with your suggestions and my own thoughts. Thanks for the feedback. I may post the third player’s Beliefs tomorrow, if we are able to sync our schedules.

6

First and foremost: Beliefs don’t have to be perfect. You can always change them based on what happens in play (it’s encouraged). It’s important to remember that you’re not locking yourself into a straitjacket.

If folks are having trouble, you can suggest this:

Belief 1: Tied to the current situation. What drives you forward?

Belief 2: Something that ties you to another player character.

Belief 3: A more long-term goal beyond the present situation.

If the player is having trouble with a belief, or you’re having trouble getting a handle on it as the GM, it’s often helpful to delve into motivations. Why do you act? Is it blind loyalty, love, ambition, something else? For the witch, investigating the potential of thinking machines for the lord she serves is very different from investigating on behalf of her sisterhood.

To take the politeness belief a step further, ask why she’s always polite. Is there a moral or ethical stance behind it? Does she believe she can get more flies with honey? If so, THAT’s the Belief. Always being polite is simply an expression of it.

For the assassin-swordsman: OK, we’ve got it, he’s a robotic killing machine. What makes him human? What does he love or hate or fear? What does he strive for? That should be the missing third belief.

7

Be wary of your players approaching frustration/burnout with Belief formation Tiresias. I’ve seen this happen. Listen to Thor, the Beliefs don’t have to be perfect and can be fine-tuned or created in play. Your players are buying in to trying this with you, don’t push too hard if you’re sensing frustration.

As the game begins to unfold they’ll get a better feel for what they could write a Belief about. This means you’ve gotta be prepared to bring a little more of your own stuff to the table in the beginning as you try to suss out what they’re gonna enjoy. You’re not gonna have a problem with that though I don’t think, but DO use what they’re giving you so far as general guidelines. Focus through play. And the stuff you bring should be dramatic stuff that you’re jazzed up and interested in. Even though the Beliefs may be a little general right now, make the scenes specific and important. Things are happening, make them see that and the roles they can play in it.

After session one, you’ll do Artha awards and can use that to help them understand how things can be tightened up for future games. This will make it clearer for them seeing it in action, and help you get a better feel for it too. After a couple sessions worth of Artha reviews and fiction building (hooks to latch on to) it’ll get easier for them.

8

@Thor: Yeah, I know it doesn’t have to be either perfect or permanent. I think I’ve gotten that across to them, too, but I’ll reemphasize it. I primarily want to ensure I have enough material to work with to create a session, and I feel like I don’t have enough to grip the players with at the moment. Of course, I’ve got no experience really challenging Beliefs myself, either, so maybe I have more than enough and just don’t realize it!

Good thoughts. The bit about the assassin-swordmaster’s third belief in particular might lead to a breakthrough. I’ll convey them to the players; hopefully tomorrow we can get some of these Beliefs refined.

@Chris: You’re right, of course. I’ll be happy just to get Beliefs that are Beliefs and not Instincts. I can lead with general material - a bit of metaplot - and we can get going from there. I just don’t want to fall back into the D&D “here’s my metaplot and I’m trying to hook in all your backgrounds to it myself”-style of play, and challenging Beliefs right from the get-go seems the optimal way to avoid that.

It was also late by the end yesterday. It’ll probably be better when we’ve all got more energy. Still, I will refrain from pushing, more than I already have, anyway.

9

Disclaimer: I only skimmed the responses because I’m on my phone.

Seems like we’re overlooking something obvious. Your situation is too broad. It’s more of a Big Picture. Who are the leaders of the treasonous house? What are they doing? What are their loyalties? Who is the on-world contact for the player’s? What do the player’s know? What’s everyone doing when they arrive?

10

I appreciate the dedication of responding from your phone!

I was trying to leave out unnecessary detail, both with the players (to avoid overwhelming them) and here (to avoid spamming), but I can see how that might in fact be necessary detail for Belief creation. The stuff in parentheses are things I was hoping to have the players discover once they’re on the planet, not in the background.

The nominal leader of the treasonous House is Viscount Erkin, a 14-year-old boy. His uncle Amaki, the House Mentat, and his mother, Iskah, are co-regents. As always, there’s the question of the regents’ intentions, but the players know they are at loggerheads. They have claimed they are very much looking forward to the opportunity to discuss matters of state with the players’ House. In fact, they legitimately want an alliance. They side with the noble parliament against the Emperor, while the players’ House currently leans toward supporting the Emperor.

I don’t know who the on-world contact for the players is yet. Need to work on that; I assumed their hosts would be their primary points of contact, given that they’re on an alien world, and that they could Circle up any agents in place they have. They know the Imperial Planetologist is falsifying her reports. Iskah is actually making sure the preparations are in place for the House to go renegade, which the players may wonder about.

Viscount Erkin is pretty much a non-entity. Not very mature, leader in name only. Very pliable, should they somehow displace his mother and uncle as counselors.

I need to convey more of this to the players, but I felt it best to leave some of the Situation up to them; that’s why I was vague. I consider most of this mutable, but maybe it would inspire them? I intended to give them dossiers on important people at the first session, but that would be after Beliefs are written up. So should I go all-out, reveal everything beforehand? What do you think?

(Edit: I have since deleted what’s in parentheses, so players can safely visit the forum if they so choose without thpoilerth.)

11

There’s this misconception about playing Burning Wheel that the GM can just sit back and let the players do all the work. While we do encourage collaboration in set up, the GM must come to the table with a strong vision and the goods to back up that vision.

What you’ve presented here is what is needed to start a game. If you were a player, wouldn’t you want all this cool info to sink your teeth into? Wouldn’t it get you excited?

The key here is that once you lay out this situation for the players, you don’t get to say what happens next. Their interactions and your challenges to their Beliefs describes the action. The “plot” is utterly dependent on those interactions. But a good set up is needed to get to good action!

And to be clear, I’m not telling you to reveal everything to the players. Surprises are great. Twists are thrilling. Keep some cards up your sleeve to use as the game progresses.
On the other hand, I am telling you to pitch this world to your players and get them excited about it.

12

Hey, I just saw your other thread and replied there with my usual “fallback” questions for building Beliefs - you’ll notice they almost perfectly link to what Thor said above.

The problem with the Beliefs you got, are a) they’re not specific to the situation, there’s no specific goals in them, and b) they’re mostly reactive.

“Keeping something secret” doesn’t mean anything. “I will find out who is the traitor in the local Chapter who has been leaking info to House Zodagon, and I will end them.” is a specific goal with specific consequences.

“I will eliminate potential threats” isn’t a belief, that’s common sense. “We will take control of this planet, but I will see it done with a single death, no more. That is what it means to be a master assassin.”

Definitely check out my reply from the other thread, I think it’ll help lead to more substantive Beliefs.

Chris

13

@luke:

Yeah, the Burning division of labor hasn’t been really clear to me. I’ve been trying to err on the side of player involvement, since I know perfectly well how to do it without player involvement. I’ve adapted what I just wrote and sent it out to them. I think I drowned them in details before so they didn’t process them. Hopefully this writeup (which doesn’t include all of my secrets, but includes a few) will help.

@yeloson:

I also included your fallback questions. I think we really need fallback questions at this point, and those questions are pretty damn pointed.

Thanks everyone. Hopefully my (potential) Belief meeting with the last player tonight will go much more smoothly than last night. If I do meet with the last player tonight, I’ll probably post his Beliefs here in the same thread. Here’s hoping they’re higher caliber. They should be; I’m much better prepared.

14

Why are you having a Belief meeting? Why not just get together and play? Having “meetings” about games make it all seem like work. When you’re ready to play, spend 10 minutes working out Beliefs. If you get one good one each, you’ll be set to play. Then just play the game. The rest will come.

15

When you put it that way, it does seem like a stupid thing to do. I just felt that Beliefs would take forever to work out, and would deprive us of time to actually play if not taken care of in advance. But it’s true, we only need one solid, proactive belief apiece, and they can add to it as they play. It’s not like I’ll manage to hit all nine Beliefs in the first session anyway.

My other concern was that I might not really hit anybody’s beliefs if I don’t know what they are in advance. But I suppose I can always wing it, and as long as the Belief is about the Situation in some way, shape, or form, it’ll work out.

The playing happens tomorrow!

16

Consider it a growing experience. You all need to learn to work together. They need to learn to write a good Belief in 10 minutes. You need to learn how to rapidly take those Beliefs and develop challenges. Don’t come unprepared. Bring your cool NPCs and setting info, but once the Beliefs are out use your assets to challenge them. It’s actually a rather thrilling way to play, if I may say so.

17

Epilogue:

The player I was going to meet with tonight really wanted to talk about Beliefs even after I told him we would just do it tomorrow, so we chatted on the phone and came up with a few.

The Mentat-Baron’s Beliefs
[ol]
[li]I will sow divisions between Baron Amaki and Lady Iskah so that they trust me more than each other.
[/li][li]I will sound out Baron Amaki and determine whether he can be turned. (Note: the player has a relationship establishing that he was Amaki’s mentor back in their Mentat-training days.)
[/li][li]I will show my comrades that I deserve to be Baron through my mastery of court proceedings.
[/li][/ol]

Instincts
[ol]
[li]Always check food and drink for poison.
[/li][li]Always activate my shield at the first sign of trouble.
[/li][li]Always seek to uncover my enemies’ secrets.
[/li][/ol]

I wish the first belief could be more precise, but until he knows the nature of their goals and why they’re not getting along, he can’t write in detail about how he’s going to exploit it.

Overall I’m happy with how it turned out. There’s stuff for me to challenge.

Thanks a lot for helping me along with this process, everyone.

18

Now you’re cooking with gas! And the first belief is awesome.

19

Do not touch that first belief! It’s great!