Fight!: Some advanced questions

[dpolan (David)]

Hello,

In our campaing we’re close to use again Fight! for an epic duel with an NPC, and after reading it again we have some niche doubts:

• Can you script Block&Strike and after that putting 0 dice into the Strike portion? Would this count towards the Weapon Speed stat of the sword? We guess that you cannot, as it would a powerful option that allow to wait for the opponent cards to be revealed on most cases

For the Two-fisted training skill:

• Scripting Strike against Block and dividing the Strike dice into two pools (one for each weapon), would you suffer the Block penalty for each of the Strike rolls? Would the defender choose which dice penalty goes for each attack?
• Having advantage with sword (or no advantage because same weapon lenght) and striking with both dagger and sword (splitting pools) would put you into disadvantage at dagger range or not?

As you can see, there are pretty niche cases, but there’s a lot of hype for the duel and players are trying to think on the different options to not die

Thanks

[Gnosego (Quincy)]

@dpolan

Can you script Block&Strike and after that putting 0 dice into the Strike portion? Would this count towards the Weapon Speed stat of the sword? We guess that you cannot, as it would a powerful option that allow to wait for the opponent cards to be revealed on most cases

Generally, any time you split dice pools, you have to have at least 1D in each pool. Unless you are reduced to only one die to assign period, in which case, you can place the 1D where you like.

I don’t know if that’s directly stated anywhere, but I believe that is the intent.

@dpolan

Scripting Strike against Block and dividing the Strike dice into two pools (one for each weapon), would you suffer the Block penalty for each of the Strike rolls? Would the defender choose which dice penalty goes for each attack?

I don’t know how I’d handle that! I might treat it as a Strike and Strike action. Avoid would definitely apply it’s successes to both attacks. Block I might apply only to one, but let the defender choose… After dice pools are established, but before dice are rolled?

@dpolan

Having advantage with sword (or no advantage because same weapon lenght) and striking with both dagger and sword (splitting pools) would put you into disadvantage at dagger range or not?

Not exactly. It would put you at the opponent’s advantage. So if your opponent has a sword and you engage with a sword, attacking with a dagger gives you the penalty for being at the opponent’s advantage, but using your sword still suffers no penalty – your opponent’s advantageous range is the same advantage for your sword.

If your opponent has a sword and you engage (and win) with a dagger, striking with the dagger suffers no penalty. Switching to your sword then puts you at your opponent’s sword range, which is also the right range for your sword, so no penalty.

If your opponent has a spear and you engage (and win) with a dagger, striking is no penalty, but then switching to Strike with your sword puts you at the spears optimal range which isn’t good for your sword, so penalty.

EDIT: To clarify, I say, “Not exactly,” because you are not at dagger range in your example. If you were at dagger range, you would have the advantage; it’s being at sword range that gives the penalty to using the dagger.

That’s my read, at least, of the rules on pages 458 and 459 of BWGR.

[Cairo]

Hello David!

I don’t know about Two-fisted trainning skill, but I’m playing a sword and shield knight, so I use Block&Strike frequently.

I don’t know if the rules require to add a die to the Strike portion, but we do it and it always count towards the Weapon Speed. You must separate the two pools of dice after your opponent’s action is revelead because you need to know how the actions interact to each other.

In the past I considered Block&Strike the best action, and it probably is the one of the best (if you have everything you need to use it) but it also has its drawbacks. The Weapon Speed is one of them. Or the possibility of the shield breaking, it starts to be a nuisance when it breaks.

[Gnosego (Quincy)]

@Gnosego

Block I might apply only to one, but let the defender choose… After dice pools are established, but before dice are rolled?

Running it this way creates these dilemmas: The attacker can try to even his dice pools out as much as possible, creating the best chance that one solid Strike gets trough uncontested at the cost of quality of each Strike. Or, he can min-max his dice pools, only dropping one die (or similar) into one pool and pumping the other. This creates a dilemma for the defender who has to decide to either throw in against the dangerous blow and expose her self to possible death by a thousand cuts, or exploit the clumsy off-hand Strike and hope the big cut whiffs (or glances off her armor).

[dpolan (David)]

@Gnosego

I don’t know how I’d handle that! I might treat it as a Strike and Strike action. Avoid would definitely apply it’s successes to both attacks. Block I might apply only to one, but let the defender choose… After dice pools are established, but before dice are rolled?

I’m referencing here p. 306 of BWG:

Two-Fisted Fighting Training
…
If a player wants to Strike with both weapons simultaneously, divide his dice between his two weapons. The character may perform Block & Strike actions as if he had Shield Training. Skill dice are divided between attack and defense as the combatant sees fit.

Both marked sentences are my main sources of doubt: If I split my dice for my weapons, is the effect of Block divided?

Block (p. 444 BWG) states that:
…
Block deflects and redirects the incoming attack. Like Avoid, your successes reduce the effectiveness of the opposed action. Each Block success reduces your opponent’s total. If you roll successes equal to your opponent, you’ve stopped his action completely.

That sentence would make more sense if the defender also spends successes on each weapon, but makes the Two-fisted skill pretty strong as you can trick the opponent into blocking the weak attack.

@Gnosego

If your opponent has a sword and you engage (and win) with a dagger, striking with the dagger suffers no penalty. Switching to your sword then puts you at your opponent’s sword range, which is also the right range for your sword, so no penalty.

As I understood the different posts about it, I though that if we start fighting at Sword distance, neither of us would be at advantage but, in the moment that I strike with my dagger, now my opponent is at advantage as I “switched” from my engaging weapon.

Then, in a later action, I could regain the advantage using the Beat action (as long as I keep striking with the dagger, as choosing sword again would put me again in the same situation).

[Gnosego (Quincy)]

@dpolan

Block deflects and redirects the incoming attack. Like Avoid, your successes reduce the effectiveness of the opposed action. Each Block success reduces your opponent’s total. If you roll successes equal to your opponent, you’ve stopped his action completely.

That assumes one attack. I don’t have my books with my right now, but consider that Block played against two attacking opponents can only effect one Strike. Of course those rules also assume more than one opponent.

@dpolan

the defender also spends successes on each weapon, but makes the Two-fisted skill pretty strong as you can trick the opponent into blocking the weak attack.

That’s a way to do it; being able to effect two attacks from one character makes a certain amount of sense.

I’m not exactly sure what kind of procedure you’re describing. If you’re saying that 4 Block successes – for instance – have to be split 2 to each attack. That seems more like you’re forcing the defender to Block the weak attack, rather than tricking them into it.

I don’t understand how that would make the double-strike more powerful. Min-maxing the dice pools mean that the weak strike is likely to miss altogether or absorb only a success or two, while making your main attack less likely to inflict a solid wound. Splitting your dice pools evenly means that you’re likely to start out with weak hits that may get whittled down to nothing.

[Gnosego (Quincy)]

@dpolan

As I understood the different posts about it, I though that if we start fighting at Sword distance, neither of us would be at advantage but, in the moment that I strike with my dagger, now my opponent is at advantage as I “switched” from my engaging weapon.

Then, in a later action, I could regain the advantage using the Beat action (as long as I keep striking with the dagger, as choosing sword again would put me again in the same situation).

That looks right, but it also doesn’t contradict what I said, I think?

What do you think happens when, in the same exchange, you switch back to your sword to make an attack?

[dpolan (David)]

@Gnosego

I’m not exactly sure what kind of procedure you’re describing. If you’re saying that 4 Block successes – for instance – have to be split 2 to each attack. That seems more like you’re forcing the defender to Block the weak attack, rather than tricking them into it.

Maybe I didn’t state that correctly, I meant that the defender could divide successes as wanted, choosing what attack to block and in what measure.

@Gnosego

I don’t understand how that would make the double-strike more powerful. Min-maxing the dice pools mean that the weak strike is likely to miss altogether or absorb only a success or two, while making your main attack less likely to inflict a solid wound. Splitting your dice pools evenly means that you’re likely to start out with weak hits that may get whittled down to nothing.

Maybe not overpowered but dicy, as you could render the block useless if the attacker spends all the dice but one on the other attack so, at -1D cost, you could strike your second attack against no defense. I don’t know if that’s the original intention as in this post (Two Fisted Fighter Training - #6 by Thor) @Thor states that the double strike it’s not very useful.

@Gnosego

That looks right, but it also doesn’t contradict what I said, I think?

No, no, just making clear that the opponent would be at advantage even if you use again your sword, it just applies no penalty as it’s the same weapon length.

[luke (Luke Wheel)]

Hi David,
Can you sketch out the duelists for us? Their skills, weapons, etc.?

[Gnosego (Quincy)]

Hmm… Let me layout the basic procedure here and see if we don’t find something interesting.

Both players reveal Actions: Strike vs Block.

The Striker says, “I will use my Two Fisted Fighting Training to strike with both weapons.”

The players build dice pools, lobbying for advantages, FoRKs, etc. (In my proposal, the defender chooses which strike pool to roll against.)

The players roll their dice. The striker rolls his two attack pools; the defender rolls his block.

The players compare their results and apply any left over successes:

Your proposal: The defender divides successes evenly amongst the attacks until, hopefully, he’s reduced the attacker’s pool to zero and then spends excess on special effects? I’m still not sure where the trickery is. Any remaining attack successes inflict wounds as normal.

My proposal: The defender spends successes reducing his targeted pool’s results until, hopefully, he has enough successes left over to apply special effects. Any remaining attack successes from that pool apply a wound as per normal. The other pool strikes unimpeded.

[…]

Resolve next Action/Volley

Where is the miscommunication?

[dpolan (David)]

Ok, here we go!

Tsorovan’sorei ti’Meizo (“Player” for abbreviation)
G6 Sword
Two-Fisted Fighting Training (are the Exponent and Shade of the skill relevant?)
Long Sword + Parrying Blade

Gaidim Jarom (“NPC” for abbreviation)
G7 Sword
Long Sword

Both duelist engaged at Sword distance (no bonus nor penalty).

First Volley, First Action (for simplicity)

Player scripts Strike
NPC scripts Block

Player states that he is going to use the two attack in a single Strike option (cause he has the TFFT), so he divides his dice pool onto 1 Dice for Parrying Blade and 5D for Long Sword (not taking ForKs into account here for simplicity). Rolls 1 Success for the first (taking into account opponent’s advantage for Long vs. Short) and 2 Successes for the later.

NPC, after Player chooses his divided pool, divides his Block pool into 2D for Parrying Blade and 4D for Long Sword, rolling 2 successes and 4 successes (I think this scenario is interesting).

Now, could NPC choose both Block benefits? (p. 443 BWG)

• 1 extra success to gain +1D to next action (Parrying Blade’s Block)
• 2 extra successes to impose +1 Ob to the blocked character’s next action (Long Sword’s Block)

@Gnosego

Your proposal: The defender divides successes evenly amongst the attacks until, hopefully, he’s reduced the attacker’s pool to zero and then spends excess on special effects? I’m still not sure where the trickery is. Any remaining attack successes inflict wounds as normal.

Here I totally messed up with Bloody Versus (we use it more frequently), where I understand that both the attacker and defender choose their pool in secret and then roll the dice, not after the Block roll in Fight!, as I’m supposing on this specific example as you propose.