I created this hometown choice for exotic players!
Distant Lands You are from a distant land far from home, family, and friends. You got to this land by boat, horse, or maybe just got lost.
Being from a Distant Land always counts as a Factor while making Circles Test. At level 3, you gain a reputation that removes the Factor and allows you to make Circles Test as normal. You have some foreign goods not found in this land, two items that take a total of one spot of inventory. Each is worth 1D of treasure. Your relationships will still be introduced whenever appropriate.
Skills: Pathfinder, Sailor, Rider, Survivalist Traits: Adventurous, Brave, Lost
As I’m getting closer to starting a game. I reconsidered this hometown choice. Instead I think I’m going to do the following:
Distant Lands You are from a distant land far from home, family, and friends. You got to this land by boat, horse, or maybe just got lost.
Being from a Distant Land reduces your starting Circles by 1. At level 3, you gain a reputation and add 1 to your Circles instead of gaining +1D to your hometown Circle test. You also have some foreign goods not found in this land, two items that take a total of one spot of inventory. Each is worth 1D of treasure. Your relationships will still be introduced whenever appropriate.
Skills: Pathfinder, Sailor, Rider, Survivalist Traits: Adventurous, Brave, Lost
This way I won’t forget to always factor the Circles and the math should stay about the same.
I don’t think you need to add 1 to Circles as level 3. Circles will advance as they use it, and if they don’t use it then it just means they’ve kept their distance and remained a foreigner in this new land. Also, they probably keep their +1D in their hometown, right? They just don’t get out there all that often…
This is probably too powerful as is. Not only do players get more options, your skills in particular are saying some odd things about the settlement (everyone from Distant Lands is a guide, sailor, stablemaster, AND knows how to get by in the wild?).
I would follow the book’s example and do 3 Skills and 2 Traits. Not only will this help bring it in line with other settlements, it also fits the fiction (the most remote settlements are usually that way for a reason–ie they are hard to get to, lack certain resources while having access to others).
I would maybe create a different remote land for each method of travel you include in your skills (Remote Island, Mountaintop Village, and I think you could just stick with Remote Village from the book).
I think the idea was more that you come from like China. Not an isolated village, but an entirely different land. Also, the skills list isn’t an ‘and’ list, its an ‘or’ list. You pick one. It’s saying that anyone that makes it all the way to the classic European style high fantasy setting from some distant foreign land must have learned at least one of those skills to get here.
It is a lot of skill and trait options, but on the other hand not having a hometown advantage anywhere you are likely to go is a pretty big drawback, as is not having access to your mentor, friend, or parents for mooching and training. I’m not convinced whether it’s over-powered or under-powered. I think “overpowered” is when something temps players to always make the same choice regardless of fiction because it’s clearly the best option. In another thread someone created a hometown with Fighter on the skill list, that would be a very tempting choice for min-maxing. I don’t think this origin meets that standard, it just gives you different options. You’ll choose it if you want to be a foreigner, not because it gives you some major advantage, imo.
I’m aware of how Hometown rules work. My point still stands that the pool of options is very powerful by virtue of offering more than any other Hometown option, not to mention that two of those are skills that come up almost every session I have played (Pathfinder and Survivalist). Not every session involves a town phase, so not having access to those things is a situational drawback for skills that are always useful as most sessions (in my experience) involve a camp phase.
Point taken on the exotic thing, though I don’t think the culture comes through. I would still lobby to create specific towns to impart their exoticism rather than a single catch-all settlement. We can see a bit of this in the race-specific settlements where the culture/environment is built into the options.
You’re right, pathfinder and survivalist do get a lost of use, though I wouldn’t say it’s as bad as Arcanist or Fighter as a hometown skill. That’s another discussion though, and I see your point about specificity. This has a feel of the euro-centric foreigner from an unspecified other-place. Like the arab that shows up in many robin hood movies. Nobody really cares what his homeland is really like, he’s just a foreigner. So maybe this would work in a very localized campaign where that other-place isn’t somewhere you’d ever visit and someone wants to play a mysterious foreigner from a land that is not understood by the locals. You get that feeling better if you leave it mysterious and foreign, rather than defining it up front. When you define it, somebody’s going to know about it, but if you leave it mysterious it’s like saying “Yeah, nobody here really knows the land you come from” and maybe that’s the way you want it. I can understand the appeal is all I’m saying. But I should stop talking now so the OP can catch up before we take over the thread
Alright, let’s see if I can address some of this. I think Jovialbard completely understands what I’m trying to accomplish with this hometown and has expressed it better than I think I’d be able to. Vanguard is understandably weary of power creep. So let’s take a closer look at things here.
Yeah, I agree. I was torn by this. While technically they would still get the +1D in their hometown, the idea is that they’ll never be in their hometown, ever. So I was trying to compensate for this. Later in this thread it was mentioned that this hometown might be over or underpowered and I’m in the underpowered camp. Which is why I tried to add this in. Removing the added 1 at level 3 makes me lean more in the underpowered side of things even more.
I think the argument against the number of options for this hometown is unimportant. I cannot see anyone ever saying that they only choose this hometown because they were able to choose one skill out of a possible four instead of one skill out of a possible three. I think if a player was that determined about picking a skill over the flavor of their hometown, then it wouldn’t matter if there were 10 choices or 1 as they would probably look at every hometown as a collection and pick their one skill from the possible 16 (or 19 if they were an elf) skills available from all the hometowns combined. I think the biggest problem with having more options, instead of the same number as all the others, is that it would set off some people’s OCD meters and I can understand how that would drive some people crazy.
However there have been a couple things mentioned that makes me think. The first being that your friends and parents would choose skills from this hometown list as their own, making it seem as if all foreign people have those skills. This was not the intent. I’ll have to think of a way to correct this.
The second, is the perceived power level of Pathfinder and Survivalist. Now Pathfinder is already an option in one of the original hometown list. Granted you have to be an elf to get to it, but if it’s as powerful as you believe it to be, then every elf ever created would only choose Pathfinder. As I think about this, I still can’t help but feel that this hometown still might be underpowered, and if that’s the case, then maybe offering a couple power skills may balance that power level. The choice for the min-maxer’s now would be, Pathfinder or Survivalist? That’s of course if the min-maxers are willing to give up 1 Circle, and free access to their hometown, parents, friends, mentors, etc.
As for not being able to feel the culture, I wanted it to be that way on purpose, so the player can create their own exotic and unique culture through roleplaying instead of having the culture predefined from through the hometown. Just another avenue for players to take if they want and probably not for everyone. For the record. I’ve tested my hometown collection options to various people and not a single person choose Distant Lands as their hometown. The most popular was the wizard tower while the rest chose based off names, nearby landmarks, or pictures of the hometowns. Also, not a single person choose a hometown based off the skills they would get.
I’m not going to quote that monster of a post, but I’ll address your points nonetheless.
It’s not just the number of options, but also the options presented. As you rightly point out, Pathfinder is available on another Hometown list. That’s not why I objected to including it. I objected to including it because Distant Lands has more skills than any other hometown options and all of them are adventure-centric. Look at the other examples from the book. While every town definitely includes powerful skills, they also include situational skills. That’s just on the game balance side of things.
From a fluff perspective, you are saying that everyone who comes from this town knows how to navigate the wilderness, build impromptu camps, ride and care for mounts, and sail through uncharted waters. The inclusion of Lost in your list of traits here seems particularly odd since the descriptive text has the phrase, “They’re useless at orienteering,” but you have two of three skills in the game that handle finding your way. I know why you included it, I’m just saying it seems out of place when presenting a culture of master navigators. The way to fix that, honestly, is to choose different skills and different traits.
I’m still unconvinced about losing access to hometown advantages. Not everyone has family, friends, and a mentor, and someone building a “Loner, Tough and Cool” type is giving up nothing except the +1D to Circles. It’s also quite easy to track down new mentors and friends through play. Again, situational drawback for an always on advantage.
If we’re sharing anecdotes, my current game is gearing up for session 12. No one has ever visited their hometown in that time, but they picked up a new mentor and are working at changing some enemies into friends. They have, by comparison, made a ton of Survivalist and Pathfinder rolls, at least 1 every session.
Hometowns have three skills, two traits. The weird benefits are weird and not necessary. I get the “play balance” thing but those are more like level benefits.
I’d ditch Survivalist and Brave. It’s a good idea for a hometown.
@King Nate, yeah it is weird that your friends and parents would have those travelling skills… on the other hand, the only way you’ll ever see them is if they also travel to get here… so it kinda works out doesn’t it.
Just for the record, I know you know how character creation works, but this is what I meant when I said it’s an ‘or’ list not an ‘and’ list. Not everyone from a foreign land knows all of those things. Everyone that makes it here from a foreign land knows one of those things. Also, I don’t think being Lost has to conflict with being a good pathfinder, maybe you happen to be a good at pathfinder because you tend to zone out and end up lords-know-where in the woods all the time. It gives you lots of practice when you’re actually paying attention. Also, someone from a foreign land might be bad at the local geography part of pathfinding (use against yourself for -1D) but they still know you go downhill to find a river, and they know different ways to tell which way is north. Makes sense to me.
If we’re sharing anecdotes, my current game is gearing up for session 12. No one has ever visited their hometown in that time, but they picked up a new mentor and are working at changing some enemies into friends. They have, by comparison, made a ton of Survivalist and Pathfinder rolls, at least 1 every session.
I bet their Pathfinder and Survivalist skills have gone up to. So through play you not only meet new people and make their acquaintance, but you also gain skills. Your anecdote does make a good point about hometown advantages though, depending on the type of campaign and what the players want to do, it might not be all that uncommon to never really see your hometown. I tend to sort of envisioned starting the campaign near a fairly common hometown and then branching out as you level, but it doesn’t have to be that way.
To Jared A. Sorensen’s point, yes, I think this does feel like it’s trying be be clever in a way that isn’t strictly conforming to the Torchbearer formula. It may have one foot in Town and one foot in Hacks, obviously I’m (personally) okay with that though. (for whatever that matters)
I didn’t think about that…it does make some sense.
The number of options I still find irrelevant. There is no rule that states that hometowns must have three skills and two traits. Actually there isn’t any rules about how to make your own hometown, so I don’t really see this as a rules hack either. Sure you can look at the other hometowns in the book as guidelines, but they are just that, guidelines. Like I said before, if a player is choosing a hometown based off skills then they are going to be looking at all the skills from all the hometowns and not just this one because they have four choices. Plus, the only skill I’m offering, that isn’t already offered elsewhere is Survivalist (and Pathfinder for non-elves). Almost all the other hometowns in the book don’t really offer skills that another hometown already has (there are, I think, two skill exceptions).
Now, I do understand the concern with the types of options available. Though I must say I believe there is a misunderstanding for the reason of those options. It’s not because everyone from a distant land is a master navigator. To quote jovialbard here;
How about instead of choosing a skill (this does seem to be more on the hack side), when you select Distant Lands you select your skill randomly from a table? This would reduce the chances of always selecting an adventure-centric skill and reduce min-maxing, while sprinkling in some cultural flavor at the expense of choice.
Sample Table Skills 2d6
2 Survivalist
3 Cook
4 Weaver
5 Haggler
6 Rider
7 Sailor
8 Carpenter
9 Stonemason
10 Criminal
11 Cartographer
12 Pathfinder
The traits could also be randomized, but I feel the three offered fit the best for an outsider coming into a new land.
I don’t really like the random table idea, but I’m just brainstorming alternatives.
The reduction in Circles and the gaining of two 1D treasures aren’t really trying to be a weird way to add rules, they were designed to grab a bit of feel for being a foreigner.
I don’t think anything you’re suggesting here has an impact larger than a few sessions, and it will all come out in the wash of play as the characters meet new people and open new skills. If it’s over or even under powered it’s in a very minor and temporary way. That also means it isn’t particularly important either, it’s just a little flavor to start the game off and set a mood for the first few sessions. Here’s a guy with no friends, he’s socially awkward with his weird ways, but he’s an experienced traveler, now run with it and make him something more through the crucible of play. Don’t over think it, unless you want to, then do (I usually want to)
Yeah, this is true. I wasn’t over thinking anything until this discussion started getting longer. I think I’ll stick with the following:
Distant Lands
You are from a distant land far from home, family, and friends. You got to this land by boat, horse, or maybe just got lost.
Being from a Distant Land reduces your starting Circles by 1. You also have some foreign goods not found in this land, two items that take a total of one spot of inventory. Each is worth 1D of treasure. Your relationships will still be introduced whenever appropriate.
Skills: Pathfinder, Sailor, Rider, Survivalist Traits: Adventurous, Brave, Lost
Yeah I like the monastery ties for the monk, but I don’t think it fits with the idea I had going here. I think there are some golden roleplaying moments when a friend (or your parents) from some distant land just happen to show up in some dinky remote village you happen to be at.
(for whatever that matters)