New GM with questions

Mouse Guard Getting Started with Mouse Guard
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Hello gents!

I’ve just got my copy of the box set last week and finally finding time to read it. Naturally, a few things raised some questions so I decided to sign up and ask. I do apologize if my questions have been asked before or if it is answered in some part of the book; this is my first read-through and I’m not even halfway through the book yet.

I decided to start with the New Rules New Missions book simply because it was smaller and took a look at the missions. Is it just me or is this like a “choose your own adventure” type of game? ie, players are going down a path, then they have choices to make (each choice and result pre-mapped out) and the next part of the story depends on which path they took. Reading the missions reminded me of my basic programming computer course, a lot of “if-then” statements. Are missions supposed to be mapped this way?

Then I got to reading the main book (beautiful art, btw!), and page 11 mentions Unplanned Stories… which kinda goes against the way I understand how the missions work, wherein the GM knows the story (or stories), he just doesn’t know which one the players end up with.

On page 68-69 (Failure), it says that the GM can deal with failures in either two ways – twist the story or succeed with a condition. I’m thinking right now that if a player gets a Success, the story continues as usual, so the simplest thing to do is if the player fails, the story continues as usual but the players get a condition as well. Also, on the example on page 69, it makes it sound as if the GM cooked up the overturned cart scenario right then and there. “He decides that the patrol is too late…” No, he doesn’t decide. He’s planned that out beforehand. If the players fail, they are too late and only see an overturned cart. No then-and-there decisions, just following the if-then storyline. When it says “new, unforeseen obstacles arise,” these aren’t really new, unforeseen, at least not by the GM.

Also, I cannot see how one session can last 2-4 hours. One mission is one session, right? Reading the missions from the supplement book, it seems like it’ll run an hour or two tops, unless a lot of non-game discussion is going on. So how can a game last two hours?

Structure of the game:
Reading p.12, how exactly does a game go? Based on what I read from the supplement, the GM just basically goes “right, you are doing this then you come upon this problem, you will need an Ob XX Science check to destroy the dam, etc. etc.” Isn’t that railroading in it’s purest form? Or what if the players decide on an altogether-new way of solving the problem, maybe talking to the beavers or using their mounts to break down the dam? Can the players even decide on a new (as in, something you’ve not thought of during the planning stage) solution during the GM’s turn?

Then again on page 66-67, the book tells the GM to describe the setting, then put the obstacle in front of them, then tell them what skill/ability they need to use to overcome the obstacle. Even though it says on page 67 that the GM can give the players options, it is still the GM who dictates what the options are. Isn’t this a prime example of “railroading the players?”

On page 70, where it says plans and suggestions are offered up to the GM, this doesn’t really affect the skill to be tested or the Ob of the test, does it? If I understand it correctly, all this does is testing to see if the player can get any more dice from helful mice, proper supplies, or the right approach to a situation – simply trying to better his odds of beating the obstacle. Is this correct?

Results of dice rolls:
On page 94, it says that everyone who helped out on a test will be affected by the result of that test. Does that mean that if one player makes a roll, and the other two players help him out, a failed roll will mean all three will get a condition (angry, hungry, tired, etc.)? What if the GM decides to do a twist rather than “succeed with a condition”?? Does this also apply to tests done during conflicts?

Little s – do they count only if you pass your test, or can you use them TO PASS the test? ie, if you need 3 successes and you roll 5D+1s, and get 2 successes, can you use the +1s to bring your successes to 3 and pass the test?

Book version - I realize this RPG has been released some time ago. My box-set book says second printing 2010. Has all the errata been incorporated into this second run? Is there still an errata list for this second print?

My son loves the comics, and I promised him last week that we were going to play this Saturday. Is it possible to game with one GM and one player? I don’t think I’m going to finish reading the book by Friday night, I am currently on the Resolution chapter - are there chapters I can skip? Is there a chapter I should pay particular attention to? Is there a newbie-friendly mission I can run? I know the book has a few but the Grain Peddler mission is too “canon” and the rest seem too complicated for me (as a new GM) and for my son (as a new player, and also as a lone mouse). Any aids/tips/hints appreciated.

One thing I like about this RPG is it is more “R” than other games, if nothing but for making players write out goals and beliefs and rewarding them for it, not just for having a high attack or a high crit chance percentage. I’ve played a few D&D games before and play some computer RPGs (Fallout 1, 2, 3, Dragon Age, etc.) and I must say this game focuses more on character and history and background than on how many attacks-per-turn you can do. Plus the “missions” you can do are very varied as well as being quite kiddie-friendly, so I know there are more role-playing opportunities than simply finding another orc/goblin/troll/bandit and bashing their heads in.

I do apologize for the number and variety of questions – I typed them out after reading a section of the book so that I don’t forget my queries. Please quote the part you are answering so that I know which section I am getting help on.

Thanks for reading!

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Welcome to the forum!

Nope. The mission designs are just a few Hazards and Twists that the GM has prepared. There’s definitely a structure to the mission, but events play out as the mice do things. I usually kick things off with something like “getting to Appleloft through the washed out roads will require an Ob 5 Pathfinder test.” Followed by asking if anyone is helping, or if the player thinks his mouse’s traits might hinder them and earn a check. I also have a good idea when I call for a test if I’m going to apply a Condition or a Twist on failure.

I’m thinking right now that if a player gets a Success, the story continues as usual, so the simplest thing to do is if the player fails, the story continues as usual but the players get a condition as well.
Simpler is not always better. Twists are interesting. Conditions give the mouse what they wanted but at a cost. Generally apply a Twist when you have something interesting in mind and a Condition when you want the mice to succeed and progress forward.

Also, on the example on page 69, it makes it sound as if the GM cooked up the overturned cart scenario right then and there. “He decides that the patrol is too late…” No, he doesn’t decide. He’s planned that out beforehand.
Well, when Liam went to climb and the GM called for a Scout test, he had decided that failure was going to result in an Animal Twist. But, nothing was stopping him from coming up with a different Twist or applying a condition and saying “You get to the top and spot the peddler down the road. But you’re TIRED from the climb.” It’s the GM’s decision.

Also, I cannot see how one session can last 2-4 hours. One mission is one session, right?
My last session with only two mice took about 3 1/2 hours.

Can the players even decide on a new (as in, something you’ve not thought of during the planning stage) solution during the GM’s turn?
Sure. The players can suggest things, but the GM has the final call. And once the GM has called for the test, the mice is committed to the roll. So, when Liam said he was going to climb the tree on page 69 and the GM called for a Scout test, the player couldn’t just back out at that point. The climb had begun.

Even though it says on page 67 that the GM can give the players options, it is still the GM who dictates what the options are. Isn’t this a prime example of “railroading the players?”
Why, because the GM says “getting by the guards unnoticed will require a Scout test?” The players can say “we attack the guards!” or “I step out and address the guards in an authoritative voice.” It says so on page 70 “The GM will point to certain tests to overcome obstacles. The players may suggest other tests, other ways to navigate the situation.”

But you are correctly sensing that MG isn’t a game where the mice just wander around in a sandbox doing whatever they want and exploring. The mice are on a mission and there’s a definite structure to the mission design.

On page 70, where it says plans and suggestions are offered up to the GM, this doesn’t really affect the skill to be tested or the Ob of the test, does it?
Nope. The players can totally propose other alternatives. The GM decides. But once the player says they are doing something and the GM calls for the test, they’re committed to the roll.

On page 94, it says that everyone who helped out on a test will be affected by the result of that test. Does that mean that if one player makes a roll, and the other two players help him out, a failed roll will mean all three will get a condition (angry, hungry, tired, etc.)? What if the GM decides to do a twist rather than “succeed with a condition”?? Does this also apply to tests done during conflicts?
Helpers get conditions on failed rolls if the GM applies one. In a twist, the story shifts in a new direction, so technically yes, the helper’s are also bound by the result. That doesn’t mean if a crow attacks someone in an Animal Twist, that all the helpers are also attacked by a crow. It’s not an issue in conflicts, since Conditions aren’t handed out during the conflict.

Little s – do they count only if you pass your test, or can you use them TO PASS the test?
I’ve always just added them to the roll, but a quick search of the pdf makes it clear that it only applies after a successful test. Hmm…learn something new every day.

My son loves the comics, and I promised him last week that we were going to play this Saturday. Is it possible to game with one GM and one player?
I played Deliver the Mail with my daughter and a GMPC mouse. Worked great. I’d suggest that mission.

I hope some of that was helpful.

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Welcome to Mouse Guard, GnG!

Thanks, James, for the great answers.

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Thanks for the welcome!

Regarding GM decisions, what I meant to say was that the GM does not decide there-and-then to introduce a twist on a failed roll, what I meant was that the GM had a pre-planned “story route.” ie, if the player pass, then they find the mouse, if they fail, then I throw in this twist. In other words, no spur-of-the-moment GM decision. Like I said in my previous post, the GM knows the story and the possible story arcs; which actual story arc they end up with would depend on the player’s luck with the rolls.

The point is, the GM is, in a very big way, railroading the players. Sure, they may take the left track, the right track, or continue along the center track, but they and the story are on rails anyway. At least during the GM’s turn.

I thought the players cannot do this. At least not in the GM’s turn. Maybe in the player’s turn.

Okay, won’t this put players off from helping another player? I mean, if I have 3 players and they each help each other out, with the two obstacles I put in their way (assuming I decide to give a condition instead of a twist), they can end up with three mice with two conditions each instead of two mice having one condition each.

How does a GMPC work in this game?

Thanks very much for the replies. It has been very helpful and reading the book is very easy, kudos to Luke. My son is very excited for tomorrow’s game; any special considerations or rule-bending for playing with one player? The only reference I could find was when “passing checks” with just one player (page 74).

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The GM is supposed to railroad the players in the GM turn. Potentially even to the point of saying, “Here are your two options for this; pick one.” Or even, “You’ve been caught by the weather. Everyone Roll Survival Ob4 or get sick!”

The “open secret” of mouse guard is that, if the GM’s planned events resolve the mission, the only way to fail is to die.

After a twist is resolved, it is exactly the same as if you had succeeded.

So given Plot ABCD…

If they fail A, they go to E, then E leads back to B
If they fail B, they go to either E or F, and then back to C.

My normal mode is a twist, and failing the twist, a condition, and on with the plot.

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Not necessarily so. It’s generally a mix, sometimes you have a plot twist planned before hand. Sometimes the players do something and you apply a twist or condition on the spot.

The point is, the GM is, in a very big way, railroading the players. Sure, they may take the left track, the right track, or continue along the center track, but they and the story are on rails anyway. At least during the GM’s turn.

Well there’s a mission and you know some of the major obstacles they’re going to face. So, in that regard sure. If the players decide they want to visit Sprucetuck instead of do the mission, theyre not interested in playing the game.

I thought the players cannot do this. At least not in the GM’s turn. Maybe in the player’s turn.

You thought wrong. The players can suggest all kinds of ways to solve an obstacle in their path. They are also going to want to do other tests in preparation for the primary roll. All those tests to help leading up the the big hazard are subject to Conditions and/or Twists as well.

Okay, won’t this put players off from helping another player? I mean, if I have 3 players and they each help each other out, with the two obstacles I put in their way (assuming I decide to give a condition instead of a twist), they can end up with three mice with two conditions each instead of two mice having one condition each.

Not a simple question to answer. Why would we assume that you’re going to give them a condition? Let’s use a concrete example:

A hawk is circling over Sprucetuck and all the mice are skittering for cover. Lieam spots little Polly standing alone in the middle of the square crying. The hawk dives. Does Lieam try to save her? Does Saxon rush in to help? What do their beliefs and instincts say? Let’s say Lieam goes for it. He’s got the Belief “a guardmouse never gives up, no matter the danger” after all. It’s Lieam’s Scout 5 v. The Hawk’s nature 7. Is Saxon still sitting back? He’s not built like a cautious mouse. He has a Goal to protect Lieam. But the player wants to be cute, so he hangs back and Lieam fails. That says a lot about Saxon. Back to Lieam, he rolls traitors, so I apply a Twist Lieam pushes Polly out of the way, but the Hawk grabs him and flies off to his nest. Now how’s Saxon doing? Lieam’s a hero for saving Poly. Saxon let his friend get dragged off by a hawk. And none of it preplanned.

How does a GMPC work in this game?

I just grabbed one of the mice in the book, fidgeted with the Goal a little and we played a two mouse patrol. I made sure to let her do all the thinking and restricted my mouse mainly to helping.

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Btw, the AP of the 3 1/2 hour game I mentioned above is here. It may help show how Obstacles flow from one to another.

Let us know how the game goes with your son. Good luck!

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Thanks for the patience with me and the brilliant response.

I cannot now remember why I thought “railroading was evil,” and why I thought “this is never gonna work coz it railroads the players.” They are mice on a mission – that alone means they have to “follow the tracks to the end.” So in a way, a bit of railroading here is a good thing. Thanks for clearing my head with that matter.

My main focus now is adapting this game, which is designed for at least a 3-mouse patrol, for a one-mouse patrol. Do you have an AP for the mission you ran with your daughter? Specifically, I am curious how you ran the GMPC. I can imagine your daughter rolling for all the tests, but what about a conflict?

BTW, great storytelling on that AP you linked.

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Thanks. I never mind talking Mouse Guard.

I don’t have an AP, but for conflicts I let her choose the actions and then we took turns rolling, but I focussed on what she was doing to help during my action.

Oh, and if the mission has some important friends and enemies included make sure your son has one of each.

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I played with only one player (a patrol guard is a good option, they do a lot of independent missions to Gwendolyn) and was pretty good. I did not change anything.

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The whole “railroading is evil” or bad or what have you comes from experiences with GMs who have a single, set storyline they want to tell, and no matter what the players do it’s going to happen just like the GM wants it to. The basic premise of almost any RPG is that the GM is going to set up certain obstacles in front of the players and they’re going to have to overcome them. Whether that turns into ‘railroading’, or whether that’s even a bad thing depends entirely upon how the GM handles it, and what the players feel like afterwards.

In my own (limited) experience so far running Mouse Guard games, here’s the tactic I’ve followed with the GM turn/Player turn mechanic…
The GM’s turn is primarily to wear down the mice a bit while introducing the major conflict they’ll deal with during the player turn. If they don’t deal with it in the player turn*, it’ll come to a head during the next GM turn, along with setting up the next major conflict. After a few such sessions, I expect I’ll have a GM’s turn which simply gets the players where they want to be, so they can deal with personal stuff, or take care of any loose ends they’ve dreamed up.

  • This is perfectly reasonable if they have other things they feel are more important, or if they feel prepping for the inevitable conflict is more important than achieving a resolution just yet.
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My style of running the game has been a little different. I try to give the players a major conflict that can be resolved during the GM’s Turn which then opens up one or more other potentially major conflicts to be overcome during the Players’ Turn.

The GM’s Turn “railroads” the players toward having to deal with the one major conflict I want to see them deal with, and the Players’ Turn allows them to choose to tackle multiple additional conflicts if they’ve earned the checks for them, or concentrate on just one otherwise. My players don’t seem to mind the initial railroading, since they know that they will get an opportunity to “jump the rails” on their Turn. And if they fail to deal with one of the hooks I set during the GM’s Turn, sure, it will likely show up in a future GM’s Turn, probably bigger, badder and meaner than it would have been if they had dealt with it earlier.

Keep in mind that it’s the GM’s job during his/her Turn to a) challenge the players’ Beliefs and Instincts as well as their Goals, and b) to give them enough of a beat-down that the Players’ Turn does not feel like a walk in the park.