New mission - The birthday

Mouse Guard Missions
1

Well, we played a game today and I thought I would post it in case anyone was able to tell me what I did wrong, could have been done better or what I did right :). I had a loose idea in my head, because it was one of the player’s birthdays and somehow I wanted to work a birthday into the game, just for fun. I chose Elmoss, the birthday girl’s hometown. For the first time, I really tried to include characters from my players’ pasts, especially the character from Elmoss. Also, I really tried to take the BIG’s into consideration when planning a mission. Up till now, our missions just mostly focus on the mission. I’ve used other NPC’s but not usually related. And I’ve left playing the BIG’s up to the player.

The mission: Forsythe (age 48/a salty old sailor), Acantha (age 19/Guards’ Honor) and Moiara (age 18/hot-headed and from Elmoss) were hastily assigned a mission without much information. Go to Elmoss and assist their Healer, Lucille, with something she needs assistance with.

First, Forsythe attempted Weather Watcher on this Spring day. He failed. As far as he can tell, nothing is out of the ordinary. Then, Moiara wanted to attempt it. Since it was beginner’s luck, she went ahead and used her trait alert against herself since she was going to lose anyway. She said that because she was alert she was distracted by something in the bushes. Her instinct is to attack first and ask questions later. On her own, she said that she attacked the bushes and in a one roll versus test, she killed the cricket. (Which we found ironic since they can predict weather and it was not really a threat.) I had intended to invoke this instinct of hers in another way later, but since she did it on her own, I let it go.

QUESTION 1: Beginner’s Luck can never really succeed, can it? Most likely you are rolling a 2 or 3 and most issues are 2 or 3 or better.
QUESTION 2: If you have Weather Watcher 4 (or any skill) and the Obstacle is 6 (in this case because it is spring), how could you even hope to succeed?
QUESTION 3: Based on the factoring lists, you could have an obstacle with a rating of 7 or 8 or 9 etc. How could one hope to win against that?

The first simple obstacle was debris in the path to Elmoss. They could either use pathfinder to go around or health to clear it. Forsythe, tired from practicing all winter in Lockhaven, Let Acantha (with Moiara’s help) move the debris. They succeeded.

When they arrived in Elmoss, they sought out the Healer (using Moiara’s cirlces with a +1D for hometown advantage) who informed them that last winter they lost a lot of children to a terrible disease. There was a remedy that is hard to come by and a trader from Port Sumac by the name of Vidar is supposed to be bringing it to her. However, he is reputed to be an unsavory character and given the importance of this remedy, she had requested help in being sure the transaction went smoothly. (Vidar is Forsythe’s enemy. Forsythe’s player then decided that Vidar is adept at cheating people out of things legally and had done so repeatedly to Forsythe’s family in the past.) They said of course. Acantha chose to go to the inn to look for him. Forsythe chose to go to the Town Hall to see if there were any records of Vidar and Moiara went to see her family.

Moiara discovered upon opening her door at home, via a note in a chair, that someone had kidnapped her parents and she must give them the medicine by dusk the next day for their return. (I chose this because Acantha’s belief is that the greater good outweighs the needs of the few and I expected that she would disagree with following the kidnapper’s plan.)

My second obstacle was going to be a complex one of Scout and Circles (I hadn’t worked out details yet) in order to find the parents. But, I ended up going with what was intended to maybe somehow be a twist. Moiara, being hot-headed and needing to prove herself, keeps the kidnapping a secret. Without permission, she confronts Vidar at the Tavern. He is well-prepared and has a body guard. It turns out to be just a discussion between the two of them when Forsythe comes over and insults Vidar. They part ways tensely.

I had to wait through several rounds of roleplaying choices about the evening before Forsythe finally ventured outside alone. Then I sprung my obstacle on him. Vidar had been lying in wait for a sword fight with Forsythe. It worked out very well since all along the player had been acting out Forsythe as being slow and tired. This conflict was to challenge Forsythe’s belief that if you lose a fight, you didn’t try hard enough. I wanted him to lose. Fortunately, the dice cooperated (I used a +3s from the Enmity Clause) and I got to blame it on Forsythe being tired. However, we were running short on time so I made it a simple versus test. Vidar knocked Forsythe to the ground and cut a “V” lightly in his back before leaving disgusted. Forsythe incurred angry (at himself for losing). I guess maybe he should not have been wounded AND angry?

Meanwhile, the plan evolved to taking a fake bottle of medicine to the kidnapper, so I never ended up challenging Acantha’s belief. They meet a kidnapper by the old oak tree (Forsythe and Acantha arrived early and climbed the tree for an ambush.) But the kidnapper does not have the parents with him. He says they are at their home but will be killed if he doesn’t walk away safely with the remedy. He leaves and they rush home to find that the house is full of people shouting HAPPY Birthday to Moiara.

This was loosely thrown together to provide an excuse to hand the actual player a birthday present. What I narrated was that while the medicine exchange between Lucille and the dubious Vidar was real, the kidnapping plot was not. When the parents (friends of Lucille) saw that Moiara was in town and Lucille explained why, they concocted a mystery for her to wish her happy birthday. Acantha pointed out that she almost killed the kidnapper so it was probably not a well laid plan.

That’s about it. In the Player’s Turn Acantha tested to practice “Instructor” by teaching Forsythe some things about politics. Forsythe sent a letter to Lockhaven to be certain his cloak was mended (he didn’t usually wear one) but now with a V on his back, he would want to be covering it up.

Moiara’s goal had been to prove her worth to the older and more experienced Guardsmice. It just so happens that Forsythe has a habit of never remembering someone’s name correctly unless he has respect for them. So, he kept calling her Moriarty throughout the mission, until at one point she apologized for having confronted Vidar on her own and keeping the kidnapping a secret. Suddenly Forsythe began calling her by her name so in the end, we decided she had met her goal :).

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Good opening and simple mission design. Good choice to include relationships–these help build player investment and engagement. Good choice to consider the BIGs–this helps focus on the patrol members’ stories within the tapestry of history.

Here are two observations: If Forsythe spends time checking the weather, are members of the patrol Helping or standing idly by? Then, if Moiara wants to begin learning WW, she should have asked to make the attempt instead of Forsythe rather than after Forsythe (and with his Helper).

One test for one Skill/Ability: if the patrol pauses to check the weather and make predictions, only one PC will test that attempt; others should Help or not (based on desired risk); GM should announce one Success w/ Conditions or one Twist.

As Moiara attacks the bushes–according to her Instinct–GM might choose not to roll dice; “Say Yes, Say No, or Roll Dice.” I’d have said, ‘yep, you go after that startling bush like nobody’s business and find yourself titled as the cricket-slayer by your patrol leader.’ No dice roll required. This is GM discretion; I’d chose it; because, there’s probably not enough of an obstacle to the patrol’s mission. As an example, what happens if her dice roll failed? Maybe, “Yep you went at the bush hardcore, and you’re terribly hungry afterward!?” See, GM discretion–that works, but it’s a bit silly and trivial, and not related to the mission at hand.

QUESTION 1: Beginner’s Luck can never really succeed, can it? Most likely you are rolling a 2 or 3 and most issues are 2 or 3 or better.
QUESTION 2: If you have Weather Watcher 4 (or any skill) and the Obstacle is 6 (in this case because it is spring), how could you even hope to succeed?
QUESTION 3: Based on the factoring lists, you could have an obstacle with a rating of 7 or 8 or 9 etc. How could one hope to win against that?

Q 1: true that BL often gathers few dice and frequently ends up without enough successes to meet or exceed the challenge; still, give it approximately the same Success w/ Conditions or Twist treatment.

Q 2: Well, WW tests will be Vs; thus, the Season rolls dice and will end up with a random number of successes/cowards, also the player rolls dice for a random number of successes/cowards. This means sometimes the Seasonal weather will be easy to predict and sometimes difficult to predict.

Q 3: Well, possibly so, but there are a few ways to look at that. Here is one idea: a task so grand is too much for the patrol to accomplish alone–you’ll need to gather a support team to manage it. Here is another idea: a task so important is too much for the patrol to accomplish at one go–you’ll need to break it down into smaller tasks which add up to the whole.

  • in a past campaign, G had a project to alleviate poverty in Flintrust. She decided first was to clean and reestablish the trail between Grasslake and Lillygrove which passes through Shorestone, Mapleharbor, and near Flintrust–this allows merchants to travel more easily among those settlements. Next, several merchants would need encouragement to use the trail and make the long circuit for trade. Finally, artisans of Flintrust would need additional training to compete with artisans of other settlements for quality, quantity, and cost.

In order to accomplish the project, I suppose I could have asked G to roll a massively massive Administrator test to represent the task of designing and managing the project plan. That would have been silly and too vague.

First, she assigned a patrol to clear the trail and make it ready; that was a Spring mission. The patrol had a hard time of it, but accomplished the assignment. Next, that patrol was assigned to mediate a trial of banditry in Flintrust (hopefully) to show that banditry would be better monitored and dealt with along the trail–other patrols were assigned to find and encourage merchants to use the trail. It was Summer mission. The patrol had a fascinating experience and were able to set free many youths of Flintrust who were caught up in a charlatan’s scheme of banditry while taking the charlatan into exile away from Flintrust. Finally, the patrol was assigned to escort several student artisans into Lockhaven for specialized training in their chosen craft/trade over Winter. The patrol chose to over-winter in Lillygrove with the parents of a patrol member where they had a grand time and attended to that PC mouse’s wedding.

So, when the Ob seems overly huge, consider how the task can be split into multiple missions which relate and build up toward fulfillment of the greater goal. Or, think whether they can simply gather a larger group to split the task into portions which can set to lower Ob.

The first simple obstacle was debris in the path to Elmoss. They could either use pathfinder to go around or health to clear it. …

When they arrived in Elmoss, they sought out the Healer … who informed … a remedy that is hard to come by and a trader from Port Sumac by the name of Vidar is supposed to be bringing it to her. … Acantha chose to go to the inn to look for him. Forsythe chose to go to the Town Hall to see if there were any records of Vidar and Moiara went to see her family.

Moiara discovered … someone had kidnapped her parents and she must give them the medicine …

Yeah, really good obstacle; simple and commonplace. I think Pathfinder could serve in multiple ways: clear the path of debris, plan a route around debris, reuse the debris as a blockade against predators for travelers on this trail

I’d have considered Laborer to just clearing debris in case no mouse had Pathfinder; yet the Ob would increase a bit for not having the best Skill for the task.

I’d have saved Health for a tiebreaker in case the patrol caused a tie. This is because I would set the test as Pathfinder Vs Season–wilderness can call upon the Season rating for Vs tests. In the case of Laborer, that might be a moderate Ob to do that work.

Good way to bring in a relationship of the patrol member! It also builds a credible reason for that NPC to show up–he’s there for a transaction.

Not sure I’d like the patrol to split up. Kinda fitting for Moiara due to this being her hometown, but I think both Acantha and Forsythe should stay close to one another, or possibly go with Moiara initially with plans to find Vidar after meeting Moiara’s family. On the other hand, looks like no one made a test while split. Also, good setup of a mouse crazed about getting that remedy for themselves–only a bit strange that they know to pick out Moiara’s parents for this ransom. Why not try to steal the medicine from the physician’s storage once the Guard have left?!

Considering this is also part of the birthday surprise, it’s all good.

My second obstacle was going to be a complex one of Scout and Circles … in order to find the parents. But, I ended up going with what was intended to maybe somehow be a twist. Moiara, being hot-headed and needing to prove herself, keeps the kidnapping a secret. Without permission, she confronts Vidar at the Tavern. He is well-prepared and has a body guard. It turns out to be just a discussion between the two of them when Forsythe comes over and insults Vidar. They part ways tensely.

I had to wait … before Forsythe finally ventured outside alone. … Vidar had been lying in wait for a sword fight with Forsythe. … This conflict was to challenge Forsythe’s belief that if you lose a fight, you didn’t try hard enough. … +3s from the Enmity Clause … a simple versus test. Vidar knocked Forsythe to the ground and cut a “V” lightly in his back before leaving disgusted. Forsythe incurred angry (at himself for losing). I guess maybe he should not have been wounded AND angry?

Meanwhile, the plan evolved to taking a fake bottle of medicine to the kidnapper, so I never ended up challenging Acantha’s belief. They meet a kidnapper by the old oak tree (Forsythe and Acantha arrived early and climbed the tree for an ambush.) But the kidnapper does not have the parents with him. He says they are at their home but will be killed if he doesn’t walk away safely with the remedy. He leaves and they rush home to find that the house is full of people shouting HAPPY Birthday to Moiara.

This was loosely thrown together to provide an excuse to hand the actual player a birthday present. What I narrated was that while the medicine exchange between Lucille and the dubious Vidar was real, the kidnapping plot was not. When the parents (friends of Lucille) saw that Moiara was in town and Lucille explained why, they concocted a mystery for her to wish her happy birthday. Acantha pointed out that she almost killed the kidnapper so it was probably not a well laid plan.

This portion is complex indeed. Starting with a bit of dialogue which leads to Forsythe being ambushed is a nice plan, but I want to call out the Enmity Clause. The rule offers a +3s to the Dispo roll of an Enemy in Arguments and Speeches. There are two highlights here: you opted for a Vs test to represent an armed fight. That is not the apropos use of the +3s. It feels right, but kinda overlooks the actual rule.

In contrast, opting for a Vs test to represent the fight and having only a minor scratch as added insult to having lost is Golden! Causing Forsythe to become Angry without success in the fight feels right, but isn’t; likewise having him Injured without success in the fight wouldn’t fit.

Consider this approach, “Forsythe, you leave the company of others to make a brief walk alone back to the barn where the patrol will rest; suddenly, you are ambushed and it is by none other than your foe, Vidar! What will you do?! You have only a heartbeat to react.”

Player may opt to stand and confront Vidar in armed fighting; GM calls for Fighter Vs Fighter test. Success means Forsythe gets to tell of his victory over Vidar–but the stakes cannot include death without a Fight Conflict. Success w/ Condition(s) means GM gets to tell of Forsythe’s victory and at what cost–such as becoming Angry about Vidar’s opening ambush: he wrestled Forsythe down, marked him with a V wound, and laughed as he walked away–all before Forsythe leapt into action and beat the S*** out of Vidar–stakes still don’t include death. Twist means Forsythe and Vidar are quickly wrestling for control of the fight, when suddenly everything gets worse–Vidar succeeds briefly in pinning Forsythe to the ground and wounds him with a dagger blade marking him with V across his back. Frightened by his own aggression, Vidar flees, yet Forsythe now must avoid this becoming a serious wound–the worse obstacle is now to test Health to determine if this was a scarring wound or not; this Health test might end up as Success w/ Condition (‘stay calm; the wound will heal easily enough, but you’re very Angry about the mark which you’ll carry for a few weeks until the healing is over’; or ‘wow, that was close! You’re going to live, but the Injured mouse will have to get off the dark streets right away.’)

So, plenty of complexity in that, just keep in mind that the test results in Success, Success w/ Condition, or Twist.

Lastly, the kidnapping plot is pretty cool once all the conspiratory portions from Lucille and Moiara’s parents are revealed–so that’s actually kinda funny. The parents think this will be a fun game to play on their daughter, but the Guard in her takes hold and fears the worst! It’s actually quite dramatic and comedic! I noticed it appears no one made a test, so it was just roleplay and narrative. I’d have built up a spot for the patrol to attempt a test of some sort which might reveal the plan early and spoil the surprise. That gives a bit of authorship and might have helped defuse the desire to attack the fake kidnapper/extortionist.

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So helpful. Thank you!

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Could you clarify what you mean by “Say yes, Say no, roll dice”? Is that to mean that it is either too easy for a roll, so I just say yes what you want to happen happens, or I don’t want it to happen so I say no and explain why, or if it is valid and I can run with either outcome I let them roll the dice? Does that explain why I keep seeing that tests usually end in success or success with Twist or condition? Because if I didn’t want them to win, I would have just said no?

And for instance with the fight between Forsythe and Vidar… I wanted to challenge Forsythe’s belief that if you lose you didn’t try hard enough. I felt like I needed him to lose. I got lucky that he did. But, if he hadn’t, then I as GM would have set up a chance to challenge that belief but it didn’t come to pass. Oh well. ???

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The origin for my quip comes from Burning Wheel and before that from Dogs in the Vineyard by D Vincent Baker. In the rules of Dogs, the GM’s instructions include, “Say Yes, or Roll Dice!” which refers to the narrative play style. Such that if a player describes a narrative of what they are doing and what is going on because of that, the GM can say, “Yes, that’s what’s going on.” or could say, “Let’s roll the dice to establish that as truth.” That’s a pretty condensed summary. I have not played Dogs, so I don’t want to say too much.

In the midst of learning about Burning Wheel and Burning Wheel Gold, I saw the instruction come up as a clear guideline for GMs to use. As such, It is rather fitting for Mouse Guard as well.

My adaptation includes the instruction to say, “No, that’s just outside the range/scope/capacity of your efforts at this time.”

I kinda figure most players in MG get accustomed to a descriptive narrative of what the PC is doing; they might expect to roll dice as a means of proving that was true and judging how it turned out. For a GM with a designed mission, not every roll of the dice builds upon and supports the mission objective.

Something like, “I’m headed over to the bakery to fill up on gabcroon bread before we leave Lockhaven,” is an example of this. That’s wonderful for the spirit of MG and understanding the world, but it isn’t really challenging, and might have nothing to do with the mission. Also, it might be a really helpful thing for the patrol to have a few loaves of bread. Rather than roll dice, and risk failed dice, a GM can simply say, "yes, you do head to the bakery and grab some bread–note a loaf of gabcroon bread for each patrol mate–the bakery gave you a simple linen satchel to carry your bread, and the baker reminds you how nice it is you serve as cloakmice; blah blah blah … "

The “say yes” portion is simply to reduce the number of tests, points of risk, and restrictions on narrative authority. It provides the players with narrative authority on a collaborative level with the GM.

Now, this can also be done for challenging tasks. It doesn’t have to be only for easy tasks. So, if the obstacle you have in mind as GM is that a bandit gang assaults the patrol as they approach Wolfepointe, but the patrol happens to be starting in Lockhaven, players might describe the challenging and lengthy trek towards Wolfepointe with some anticipation of a Pathfinder Test. However, you can allow the trekking without a test, and narrate the attack once they’ve gotten close to the settlement and show them the test in this case is about how to respond to the ambush.

Using “Say No” comes with some variance on the reason. In some cases you might not want to address a certain fiction–I had a group who delayed leaving on a mission while they attempted to force hares to carry them on a routine mail route. I kinda wish I had said, 'No, you don’t have the first bit of knowledge about how to ride, care for, and talk to hares–you’d better just get on your mission. Instead, I foolishly created a Negotiation Conflict, and that led to Harvester, Loremouse, and Persuader tests along the route which was intended to only be a Pathfinder test with a possible Animal Twist (Deliver the Mail sample mission). It was a beast to run through all those extra steps which also required loads of Beginner’s Luck tests during the Conflict.

Another way to use ‘No’ is to limit the effectiveness of a plan. I’ve found this is a key when having Fight or Fight Animal conflicts. In both cases, the reminder that Natural Order as well as conflict goal are critical in determining the possibility of death. Then, the compromise also holds sway. In the midst of a combative struggle, it is natural for players to describe the blow-by-blow with blood, guts, and more; thus, including an occasional, “nah, not quite that powerful,” calms the fiction.

A player-related use of ‘No’ comes when the dice have failed and the GM describes the accidental, foolish, or prideful mistake which brought about Success w/ Conditions. A player might just feel it doesn’t fit the PC characterizations. That’s a chance the player might say, “No, he really wouldn’t talk/act/think that way, but maybe more like …” and helps to ensure that players have a collaborative attitude about the failed dice. I’ve seen this only once in play, and it was a pretty good decision on the part of the players. The Ptl Ldr wanted to leave Grasslake to attend to duties elsewhere, but the patrol mates wanted to run a free flu clinic for sick Grasslakers. It was getting heated, so I called for a Persuader Vs Persuader test which the Ptl Ldr failed. Initially I was going to go with rank wins with a Condition of Angry for having to argue with patrol mates, but the player responded differently, ‘that’s not her style, she’s passionate, but willing to hear them out–plus she’s also sick with something from earlier.’ So, the patrol mates wrestled their Ptl Ldr into a bed, told her, “There, there; just rest now,” and set about on their plan for a free flu clinic. It was a better result than the Ptl Ldr coming off as a heartless authoritarian regarding the sick mice in Grasslake.

I’m careful not to use ‘No’ as a means of rejecting something plausible, and mission-appropriate, that simply wasn’t in mind. Often players will inject inventive and creative solutions to complex problems in the story. I’m also careful not to throw a losing situation at them without giving a chance to succeed–I’m not going to attempt Kobayashi Maru scenes.

The last bit to ‘Roll Dice,’ is to remind that some ideas are plausible, fitting to MG and the mission at hand, and downright risky. Even foolish ideas might be worth a test now and then to see how it unfolds.

Test Results:
In the rules for MG, the GM instructions describe two possible results of a failed test. If the dice were successful, then the player describes the success (possibly with a bit of moderation as needed). However, if the dice were cowards, the GM describes the results in either Success with Condition(s) or Twist. Each has nuance which is unique.

Success w/ Condition(s) is simply that GM describes the successful results and the resulting Condition(s). The simplest are Hungry/Thirsty or Tired. A bit more edge brings on Angry. Some added depth, risk, mood, or accumulation of Conditions brings on Sick or Injured. A brief example: a mouse who is already Hungry, Tired, Angry has another failed test, and becomes Injured or Sick; since, the PC cannot be double Hungry or Tired or Angry. After the narrative and mechanics are complete, move forward from there. The task is complete, so no return to try again.

Twist is kinda simple and kinda complex. The simple side is that there is another situation that overtakes the scene which the patrol must interact with. Sometimes this leads to completely new test(s) and sometimes it is just a thing they need to actively respond to. Usually it is going to have test(s) or conflict. The complex side is that the twist can be presented in a wide variety of methods. It seems to be a vague interpretation that Twist comes while the mice are doing something successfully, but that doesn’t have to be the only interpretation. They might have just barely started one task, when a new situation arises; they may be failing quite badly when a new situation arises; they might be nearly complete when a new situation arises. In fact, they could also be faced with the same situation in a much worse state! That’s what I nickname the Everything Gets Worse twist.

Twists are the meat of a challenging session. The GM doesn’t have to give success w/ Twist; as in, following the Twist, the patrol doesn’t just return to what they were doing before the Twist arose–sometimes, yes, but not always. It could be the Twist solved the other issue. It could be the Twist took them around the other issue. It could be the Twist took them far from the other issue. In many cases the situational-awareness of a GM is exercised when using a Twist to drive the patrol into other matters.

I find that a Twist is a good method to redirect when the dice fail on a task that I don’t want the patrol to succeed. See, I won’t outright deny them on something I don’t want to happen. I’ll offer the test as I see it, and consider the Twist in case dice fail.

In the instance of Forsythe and Vidar, I think where you played it out was a pretty good story: Vidar was angry and acted violently. That’s fair and a good way to deepen the enemy status. And, challenging the Belief through a win/loss is also a good outlook. (aside: Forsythe’s Belief might be improved if written in reverse: “If I don’t try hard enough, I’ll lose.” or could be written without the conditional statement, “The hardest effort is required to avoid losing.”) But the challenge to that scene was that you wanted to cause Forsythe to doubt whether he lost for not trying hard, for being Tired, or for not being as good a fighter as Vidar or as another Guard. Right? Alternately, you could also have him win, but doubt whether he really tried hard, or Vidar was not a good enough fighter, or any Guard would have done quite as well.

An additional perspective on his effort (while totally meta) might be to ask whether he used Persona for a bonus or to tap Nature, used Fate to explode dice, used gear effectively, used a wise, faced the challenge with his best (appropriate) skill (e.g. What if he had tried to talk Vidar down from a fight?!). If the player didn’t use everything available, has Forsythe really tried his hardest to win? Did he (possibly) win even without trying and what does that say about his Belief?

6

Ken, just to clarify “Say Yes” it does come from Dogs in the Vineyard and Luke quotes it in Burning Wheel. In Dogs, “Say yes or roll the dice” is advice to the Dogs GM that you just give players anything they ask for until the players do something that you want to oppose, something that matters. So, if a player wants to pick a lock on a random house, you may want to ask how the character learned to pick locks, but the door is open. If they research something, they’ve got the info, etc. until the player says something that matters, then the GM goes to dice. It’s not about establishing truth. It’s about the GM not 1. Blocking stuff that doesn’t matter, and 2. Turning to the dice for stuff that doesn’t matter. It’s not primarily about player narrative authority, but if the player asks about something that hasn’t been decided and isn’t interesting for a conflict, the GM is going to say yes based on the rule.

The thing about Dogs is it doesn’t have a quick resolution method like a versus test. It would be like playing MG with only the conflict rules. Every little test would be a full Conflict!

In BW, it’s also not about player narrative authority. It’s about not calling for rolls when success and failure aren’t interesting and relevant. BW players don’t have any special narrative authority, although BW GMs have typically allowed characters to test to establish truth if they had a relevant wise. A BW GM shouldn’t call for a roll without knowing what success and failure mean and that both results are worth rolling for.

The reason that the quote doesn’t need to include “no, that’s outside your scope” is that it was never intended to extend the players’ scope. The players don’t have the authority to make things true just by saying it is so.

In the example from the OP the player doesn’t really have the authority to say there’s a cricket in the bushes. It’s fine if the GM wants to let her say it and make it true, but it’s an important distinction.

Renee, as Ken has pointed out, in Fight v Fight test, the PC either wins, wins with a Condition or there’s a Twist. So, if you give Forsyth the angry condition Vidar is defeated. Even in a twist, Forsyth doesn’t lose the fight. You could have done something like "you and Vidar struggle, blades dancing, weaving a deadly net of steel. As you battle back and forth you feel yourself beginning to tire. In Vidar’s eyes you see a steely resolve. It begins to dawn on you that he may be the better fighter. In that moment, you are both seized by the town guard. “They’ll be no swordfighting in my streets! Lock em both up!” That would challenge his belief.

7

Quite right, and better stated than I. I’ve done a little background reading about Dogs, but as I admitted, never played the game.

In BW, it’s also not about player narrative authority. It’s about not calling for rolls when success and failure aren’t interesting and relevant. BW players don’t have any special narrative authority, although BW GMs have typically allowed characters to test to establish truth if they had a relevant wise. A BW GM shouldn’t call for a roll without knowing what success and failure mean and that both results are worth rolling for.
Right. I just mean narrative authority in the sense that a player can describe a scene–such as walking into a town plaza, seeing the vendor stalls, smelling the fine spices, hearing a raucous band–all of that exists unless the GM feels some reason it doesn’t. Thus, if there is a test to be had–such as an orator test–the player could go on to describe the vendors gathering, the band calling out to silence the crowd, and the patrol taking center stage. In that sense, there’s no need to take away that narrative authority for a dice roll. Other examples also apply.

The reason that the quote doesn’t need to include “no, that’s outside your scope” is that it was never intended to extend the players’ scope. The players don’t have the authority to make things true just by saying it is so.
well, I’ll clarify this a bit. Here’s an exaggerated example: A patrol stumbles upon an excellent location for building a settlement with good terrain, resources, and pathways–it’s so excellent any small hamlet would become a thriving city in one generation. A patrol mate says, “I’mma write a city plan and mice are going to settle this spot!”

The GM might say, “That’s a bit much,” which garners a response, “How about an Administrator test to decide if I can do it?!”

Well, I’d say that’s a bit too large a scope for a test, and I’d say, ‘No.’ In response, I’d offer, “You can spend a check for each of: Cartographer to develop a city plan and grid the city center and districts; Administrator to write a settlement plan which includes rationing of food, licensing of commerce, and pattern of governance; and Survivalist to develop makeshift shelters for initial settlers to begin securing the place. Following those tests, you’ll also need to make Orator test(s) in other settlements to attract settlers, Archivist test(s) to record pioneers and investors, Haggler test(s) to negotiate claims and settle boundaries, and possibly other tests and conflicts.”

So, it’s largely to say, the scope of the overall desired outcome is beyond the single test–it’s a great idea and worthy of a long-running project.

In a smaller example, a patrol might say they want to build a house and anticipate Stonemason and Carpenter tests will be required. The GM might feel they also need to test Resources, Laborer, Cartographer, and Administrator for additional purposes. It’s less exaggerated, but within GM discretion to set the scope of the test result–it should be made clear before dice are rolled just what the end result will/might be. Another GM may interpret the need for those other skills and simply ask that those skills be used as Helpers along the way, else the results of coward dice might be more disastrous.