Problems in realizing the Mouse Guard turn structure

majis · February 12, 2014, 4:27pm

Hi again,

So this Monday I was like “Let’s try that real style of playing MG”, and because I hadn’t tried that GM turn/player turn thingy yet I picked a ready mission. I tried out Deliver the Mail -mission and tried to do exactly what it said in order to understand the turn structure of the Mouse Guard RPG.

Well, i couldn’t do it. In the mission the first obstacle is at the last route to Gilpledge but there is lots of other towns before that. And because players did have relatives in these towns I let them describe if they wanted to do something there and gavethe same chance to other players too (mission description doesn’t allow this in GM’s turn I think). The start was really boring because I couldn’t give them a obstacle before all the cities were went through. But eventually we skipped the second last town and went to the first obstacle.

Players lost to the Raven 6-0 so the Raven stole the mail box and players wanted to go after it. But I had read that you could do it only in players turn so players had to go to the Gilpledge without mailbox and it didn’t make a sense.

In the next obstacle they also couldn’t accept helping the Carpenter with his rocking chair problem. This was because first they had to finish the mission by going to the Gilpledge - even without the mail box! Without turn structure players could have abandoned the deliver mission because they didn’t have the box and go helping the carpenter.

So in my opinion the Turn structure didn’t make sense because players couldn’t do things that they should have done for the sake of the mission and Guard. It also made the relatives in the the other towns useless. What am I doing/thinking wrong?

Daniel_H · February 12, 2014, 5:31pm

Hi Majis,

A few thoughts: I’m glad your players were interested in having their characters follow up on relationships in other towns. When I plan a mission, I always include relationship characters and the players’ hometowns. But in this case, you revealed another fact of life for mice in the guard–they are under orders from Lockhaven and beholden to their duty. This is reinforced by the turn structure, where half the session is spent dealing with mission obstacles you throw at them, and half the session is the Players’ Turn where they can pursue their own agendas.

Does it make for interesting situations when the characters’ BIGs and relationships clash with their duty? Of course. You said, “Without turn structure players could have abandoned the deliver mission because they didn’t have the box and go helping the carpenter,” however I think this is missing the bigger picture. The players can help the carpenter, but they do so at the expense of not completing their mission. It’s up to them to decide what action they want to take, and to deal with the consequences.

I don’t have the text of Deliver the Mail in front of me, but following their briefing I would have presented the players with two obstacles: a Pathfinder test for the last leg of the journey to Gilpledge, and the conflict with the crow. If they had insisted on stopping off in other settlements along the way, I would have glossed over the interactions quickly, or used their desires as a jumping-off point for followup missions, as the patrol makes its way back to Lockhaven. If the crow steals the mail, the players can use their checks to complete their mission. Calling for the Players’ Turn with the mission unresolved is one of my favorite GM tactics.

The players should feel like there’s never enough time to do everything they want to do. There always will be conflicts between their missions and their personal matters. While this urgency makes for good roleplaying fodder, it can be difficult to get the dynamic of the GM’s Turn and Players’ Turn moving in the right direction. I hope you all stick with it and I’m sure you’ll be more comfortable with this structure next time.

Bobo · February 12, 2014, 5:39pm

I remember one session where I started a session by describing the mission and then asking the player “so, which way are you going to take? Here, or this longer way, or perhaps through this town”? Immediately – actually while I was still talking – I realized this was not a good idea. I had obstacles to hit my players with, and I had twists prepared, and it didn’t really matter which way they were going to take, so this choice was an illusion. Nothing would change, no matter how they decided. Yeah, not a good idea. And if they had chosen to go somewhere else? My obstacles and twists would have been useless. That’s an old problem in RPGs. The turn structure exists to prevent stuff like this, among other things.

To get to your questions: The way to prevent boring beginnings is to simply follow the book. Tell the players what’s up! If necessary, provide a bit of exposition (“Gwendolyn asks you into the map room and lays out the mission, which is …”), and then go to the action. For Deliver the Mail, describe the journey and the visit to Sprucetuck or whatever, but don’t let the players derail things or ask them what they would like to do apart from the mission. That’s what the Players’ Turn is for. Basically, this part is colour. Keep it short and get to the action.

If you don’t need to set things up, you can even jump straight into the obstacle and start in the middle of things. Bandits! It’s an ambush! It’s a fox! Coming right at you! The town is burning! Fire!

So, don’t fuck around like I did that one time, get to where the obstacle is. In the GM’s turn, it’s the GM’s role to tell the players where their characters have to go and what the obstacle is and how they can overcome it. Don’t let them wander around and do stuff that’s got nothing to do with the mission. Save that for later. Right now, it’s the obstacle that counts.

So, get to the obstacle. If the patrol fails to overcome the obstacle (i.e., the players fail the test), you can choose: Grant them success with a cost, and on you go; or introduce a twist. This is my favourite part of the rule: You can introduce twist after twist and just keep going until you run out of ideas or want to get to the Players’ Turn.

In your case, the raven flies away. That’s a twist! A twist is a new obstacle: Tell them how they can overcome it, or ask them how they would like to overcome it. Track that raven down, find out where he has his nest, find some enemy of his, get the drop on him, whatever. Then climb up or lay an ambush or do something, anything else to get those letters back. If your players succeed, well done, go on to the next obstacle until it’s time to end your turn. If they fail, introduce another twist (or grant them success) and so on.

Do this until it’s time for the Players’ Turn. When they encounter Martin, he’s an obstacle. They have to tackle him! After they won or lost that conflict, end your turn. Points like this are excellent for ending your turn! Leave the players something to do, or get them in trouble, or stop right before the critical bit at the end of the mission and hand over the reigns. Now it’s up to the players to decide what to do next. Help Martin? Try to get even with the raven, if they haven’t done so yet? What about their beliefs and goals? Anything still unresolved? Also, they’ll still need to deliver the mail.

Does that help? If in doubt, reread the chapter The Mission, especially the subsections The GM’s Turn and The Players’ Turn and simply follow the recipe. It works very well in my experience.

[P.S. Also, actually using the turn structure will eliminate most of the problems you described having in your earlier posts. Big bonus!]

noclue · February 12, 2014, 6:04pm

Where does it say the players can’t chase after the raven?

kendesign · February 13, 2014, 1:10am

sure, that obstacle isn’t faced until the patrol leaves Sprucetuck, but it represents the entire route from Lockhaven to Gilpledge including the drop-off/pick-up of mail in Elmoss, Sprucetuck, Dorigift, and Gilpledge; the test is the whole route, not just the section between Sprucetuck to Dorigift. This is a benefit to the GM. You can easily allow a slow beginning as the players describe their trip through Elmoss and Sprucetuck. As they leave, you can pipe up to say, “Oh by the way, let’s test how this route is going!” You could say the risk of the Wilderness Obstacle is Success w/ Condition; that’s not a bad way to go. But you could easily turn it to a Weather Twist; “Oh, I didn’t mention you’ve been struggling through spring rain all along the route. Now that you move away from the large town of Sprucetuck, you’ve got a lengthy trek out to the rural Dorigift and the patrol mice must each test Health against the season.” You could also easily use the Animal Twist, which you did.

Players lost to the Raven 6-0 so the Raven stole the mail box and players wanted to go after it. But I had read that you could do it only in players turn so players had to go to the Gilpledge without mailbox and it didn’t make a sense.

Yeah, that’s pretty rough of a result. Sounds like maybe you pushed them through a conflict that left the patrol badly skunked? Have I read correctly? Well, it is a pretty rough result the raven got away with the whole mailbag. I’d have considered a compromise which at least ended with the patrol reaching Dorigift, then swapped to Player Turn; however, that might depend on how many checks were earned. But, I agree with a serious shift in the story like that makes the remaining route to Gilpledge a tough question: ‘Do we finish our route knowing we’ve got to pick-up mail? Do we go after the lost mail? Do we even tell Dorigift or Gilpledge about the mailbag lost? Do we buck up trying to look invulnerable?’

In the next obstacle they also couldn’t accept helping the Carpenter with his rocking chair problem. This was because first they had to finish the mission by going to the Gilpledge - even without the mail box! Without turn structure players could have abandoned the deliver mission because they didn’t have the box and go helping the carpenter.

This is actually among my favorite examples of Mice Obstacles. Martin is identified as willing to start an Argument Conflict. He is not simply going to ask; he is not simply going to request; he’s going to stop them in their tracks to say, “You have to listen to me?” It is great! In addition, all he wants is a promise. They don’t have to stop what they are doing for his adventure, but he does want a promise of help ASAP. That means he makes a great challenge. Also, the Mice Twist with Loretta is another great example Mice Obstacle. However, some patrols might ignore the signs to stand up and act.

So in my opinion the Turn structure didn’t make sense because players couldn’t do things that they should have done for the sake of the mission and Guard. It also made the relatives in the the other towns useless. What am I doing/thinking wrong?

yeah, that’s a tough thing to look at. My first time running through Deliver the Mail was a wild mess. The second time was a wild mess too. Welcome to the learning curve.

Instead of trying to critique any longer, I’ll talk through another sample mission. Consider having the group run through Trouble in Grasslake, but change a few items.

Trouble in Mapleharbor:
The patrol is returning from a mail route which had some problems (maybe they are escorting Loretta closer to Darkwater too). As they approach the aged city of Mapleharbor, a mouse rushes toward the patrol to urge they hastily get into town to deal with an animal intruder (I’d suggest snapping turtle still works, but otter, raccoon, or skunk provides variety).

Animal Obstacle:
Immediately the patrol has got to address the animal intruder. Firstly, they can’t leave the affair–it is their duty. Secondly, they owe it to a relationship in town who just had the animal destroy their home/workshop/storefront. If they still feel hesitant to engage such a danger, an enemy is around to steal the show with an aggressive plan.

Mice Obstacle: such as the rival
Regardless of how the patrol plans to handle the animal, mice throughout the settlement are terrorized. A group gathers to dispute with the existing leadership of the town; they hope the patrol will join them in support. They are in open rebellion against the town leaders; because, they have claims the animal intruder is due to something wrong about the leader’s decisions. This crops up just about when the patrol starts to take action, their response to the rebellion determines whether the town will help or hinder their efforts against the animal.

Animal Twist: such as destruction
Look at pg 69; sometimes a great Twist is the obstacle gets worse. In this case, the patrol’s first attempt to handle the animal leads to a far worse situation–they’ve angered it!

Mice Twist: such as the young miss
Ok, this mice twist may not fit every group. As the patrol tries to manage a rebellious mob, an attractive mouse ignores any good sense and falls for a Guard in the patrol. This mouse drives for a conflict to convince the Guard member to settle down, leave the Guard, and become the champion of the rebellion. Beware, if the conflict convinces the patrol mouse, it will need a check during the Player Turn to alter the convinced mouse.

Just look at all that great advice about the Player Turn from Trouble in Grasslake (pg 296)! That stuff is excellent.

So, another animal? you may ask. Sure, let the raven be water under the bridge and show the patrol that another approach (possibly with a town helping) will be more dynamic. It doesn’t have to start as a conflict; maybe an initial attempt is Vs. and determines which twist is quite right. Did someone get heroically injured? Enter starstruck romantic! A big angry mob? you might scoff. Sure, see how the patrol want to approach the touchy subject. Will they try to appease the group? single out a leader for one-to-patrol discussion? Downplay errors in leadership to reinforce the status quo? Support the claims of frightened mice? There are loads of options.

In contrast, with Deliver the Mail, it actually has fewer options. The pathfinder is about a route; the patrol doesn’t really get much leeway. They’ve got mail to drop-off/pick-up from each town in order. The raven basically wants one thing; it is almost a joke that it wants shiny things. Martin knows exactly what he wants and how the patrol will be used.

Think about what I described of Trouble. The animal is an intruder; what will the patrol do? They can research, hunt, chase, talk (using Loremouse); each approach is unique. You’ll have to keep the animal loose about objectives. The rebellion is connected to the terror of an animal–it is not really about the leadership of the town. If the patrol keep a cool head about it, they may be able to talk through the fears and settle matters for the better. They could also take advantage of it to unsettle the status quo depending on goals.

I’d say Deliver the Mail is a fair sample mission, but it is strongly set forth with objectives and single track obstacles. Sometimes that is great in MG. Trouble has got a more dynamic mission. I’ve often felt journey missions are a bit more single track than adventure missions. So, sending the patrol on a mail route probably means loads of Conditions, limited conflict. An adventure mission can be set in one location or more, but the drama of conflict gets bigger and more background NPCs get pulled onstage.

noclue · February 13, 2014, 3:02am

Yeah, that’s kinda why the mission says:

The GM starts with a description of the journey.
He may also describe briefly visiting Elmoss and
Sprucetuck. Then he presents the wilderness
obstacle…

Move to the exciting parts. You can spend a bunch of boring time with family during the winter. A mission is tightly focused like a one-shot.

Players lost to the Raven 6-0 so the Raven stole the mail box and players wanted to go after it. But I had read that you could do it only in players turn so players had to go to the Gilpledge without mailbox and it didn’t make a sense.

Umm…verbatim from the mission in the book:

If the raven wins, the patrol must track him
down and retrieve the mail. Tracking the raven
requires a Hunter versus Nature 8 test. Stealing
the bag back from the raven requires a Scout
versus Nature 8 test.

So, once you initiate the twist there’s no requirement that the players go to town before hunting the raven. In fact, traveling to town is a good way to let the trail go cold. I would have called for an immediate hunter test to find the raven and given them success with a condition if they failed. “After an exhausting two days search, you find the raven’s nest high up in a tree. But you’re TIRED” In any event, once you moved them to Gilpledge without the mail, requiring them to distribute the mail before ending the GM’s turn definitely made no sense.

In the next obstacle they also couldn’t accept helping the Carpenter with his rocking chair problem. This was because first they had to finish the mission by going to the Gilpledge - even without the mail box! Without turn structure players could have abandoned the deliver mission because they didn’t have the box and go helping the carpenter.

The turn structure had nothing to do with this. The mission recomends ending your turn after the argument with Martin, because this makes sense. But, you could have ended your turn with the raven flying off if you wanted, without breaking the game. I know this mission says where to end the GM’s turn, but that’s not a rule; it’s still within your power as GM to end it where you want.

If they’re talking with Martin they are already in Gilpledge. The mission assumes they have the mail, and it makes sense that they distribute it before bringing in Martin. In your case, the mail is with the raven, so at this point you’ll need to revise things. The mission assumes that the players don’t want to travel to Walnutpeck because, um, it was overrun by weasels in the War! Gwendolyn would be none too pleased to lose a patrol of guardsmice on a pointless quest for a rocking chair. But, Martin may pull off the argument conflict and get the mice off on a silly quest. Again, the turn structure doesn’t stop the mice from accepting this quest or rejecting it. So, it would have made sense at this point to move into the argument and win or lose, end your turn there.

So in my opinion the Turn structure didn’t make sense because players couldn’t do things that they should have done for the sake of the mission and Guard. It also made the relatives in the the other towns useless. What am I doing/thinking wrong?

I think I’ve pointed out what you did above. Let me know if you have any questions. None of these problems came from the turn structure not making sense.

majis · February 13, 2014, 6:34am

I remember one session where I started a session by describing the mission and then asking the player “so, which way are you going to take? Here, or this longer way, or perhaps through this town”? Immediately – actually while I was still talking – I realized this was not a good idea. I had obstacles to hit my players with, and I had twists prepared, and it didn’t really matter which way they were going to take, so this choice was an illusion.

This is approximately what I am feeling a lot. I wanted to give the players choice to visit their relatives, but in the same time I knew that it wouldn’t matter at all. In the beginning I also gave them freedom to choose the path they would be travelling, like you did there. The GM’s turn lacks freedom and this “useless” roleplaying that RPGs usually have.

You all agreed on that I should have gone to the action right away without giving the players lot of power during the pathfinding to Gilpledge; Short intro and then to the obstacle. I will do this from now on but should players have any possibilities to tell the story with me. Like how would Dain’s instinct Check the weather early each morning. appear in-game? Does the GM just describe it in his intro?

The animal obstacle was apparently played wrong because I didn’t know I could play more than one twist per obstacle. I didn’t have a compromise in conflict because Raven had all his 8+ dispositions left when conflict ended. I obviously should have ordered the players to chase the Raven. In this point of game I had realized my mistake with the towns so I tried to be stricter (Obstacle->twist->second obstacle).

In the Martin’s case (the carpenter) I feared that if Martin wants just a promise from the players they just could break the promise in their player’s turn. I did have 2 new players in session so they didn’t know so much about Mouse territories and Guard’s Honor so they could have done it.

Welcome to the learning curve.

I’ll try my best next time too! I just hope my playing mates don’t get bored to this style of gameplay - especially when I mess with it. Next I think I’ll try the Trouble at the Grasslake -mission.

Also, how long prologue I should have kept? All in all there is lot to be told: Gwendolyn giving the mission, patrol leaving the Lockhaven, Weather, how travel goes, what happens in towns, what the towns look like…

So so far I have learned:
-No useless choices/tests to players. Right to the first obstacle.
-You may create a twist to a twist.
-You can order players to do things in this game even in the player´s turn (Martin’s case).
-You can end GM’s turn before it should have ended. Mabye due the failed mission because then patrol has no point in finishing it.
Did i miss something else? I really want to learn the game because it is so different. But right now it feels more like a game - not rpg.

Bobo · February 13, 2014, 9:21am

Oh, it’s an RPG all right. Wait till your second or third session, when the turn structure takes obvious effect. My players were very sceptical initially, but both in MG and in Torchbearer they really caught fire during the third sessions (maybe we’re just slow …).

I’ll try to answer your questions about the GM’s Turn first. (Sorry, quoting – and editing – doesn’t work for me at the moment, I just get a blank window, so I’ll do it by hand. Brace for wall of text!)

At the start of the mission, I spend no more than a few minutes on the prologue. You can roleplay it a bit, or just narrate it. Once the mission is underway, players do the recap and you can start in the midle of things.

If players take instincts, it’s the GM’s responsibility to bring them into the game. “Check the weather each morning” is a fine instinct. Narrate a morning in camp on the way and have him check the weather, if he wants to! You can do this several times in a session, if it makes sense in the fiction, or can point to the Fun Once rule on p. 90 and let one weather test count for the whole journey or turn.

For the raven and similar twists, you’ll find you’ll seldom have to “order” anyone around. Players want to succeed! Just tell them, “The raven flies off with your mailbag! His cawing laughter mocks you until he vanishes in the distance. You want your mail back? To find him, you’ll need a Scout test, or Hunter, or an applicable wise. Any other suggestions?” Remember, you can always grant success at a cost, no matter how bad it looks.

Or, as you noted, you can go to the Players’ Turn and drop the problem in their lap; that’s not a bad idea if you have no more obstacles planned or no more good twists. “He’s gone. Your turn. What do you do?”

Now for the Players’ Turn. When Martin wins the conflict, or exacts a compromise, and the patrol promises to do something, then that’s a metagame condition. It’s a rule of the game, a promise between the players and you, the GM: players either have to stick to the compromise and do X, or challenge that compromise via another conflict. Don’t let them weasel out of this. After all, they expect you to stick to your promises when they win a conflict against some NPCs.

(For the record: Just starting a second argument if you lost the first one violates the Fun Once rule. They’ll need something better than that. That sounds a bit hazy, but you’ll know when your players just try to weasel out of a compromise.)

So, you can’t order players to do anything in their own turn (that’s the only one of your points I’d contradict). It’s an obligation their characters took on themselves, and now they’ll have to deal with it. How they do that is their own business. (If they try to cheat Martin out of his promise, roleplay him and heckle them. “But you prooomised …” Whine at them, keep reminding them in the fiction. Also – as table chatter – tell them about the metagame rule as a promise from player to player/GM.)

Finally, your list – I think the only thing you’re missing is that MG just takes the way “traditional” RPGs work and structures it a bit. Usually, you have the GM and the players taking turns; now “you have to do this” and now “we want to do this”. In MG, it’s just separated into two different phases.

The trick is to have one turn feed into the next. In session one, the GM’s Turn usually starts the mission, often with a journey to the location. In the Players’ Turn, players get a shot at the mission objective. All the stuff that happens in this session is fodder for the next session.

In session two, the GM’s Turn picks up something from session one (preferably from the Players’ Turn, in my opinion) – a complication, a promise, a twist, an enemy made, an unaccomplished objective. This is a problem that came up, and now they have to tackle it! Then, in their own turn, they again get a shot at fulfilling some personal goal or an objective or whater. What happens there again feeds into the GM’s Turn for session three and so on.

In this way, you never need to prepare anything beyond two obstacles and two twists for your GM’s turn. You can’t predict what players will do in their turn, and you can’t force them to do anything there! But you can take what they end up doin, and then make new obstacles and twists for you next GM’s Turn out of them. (If you ever end up without any idea what to do next, just invent a new mission.)

In short, the GM gets the game up to speed, and when it’s running, hands over to the players. Next turn you pick up on their actions and give the game a new push, and then again hand over, and so on. It’s a fun ride for both parties!

Does this answer your questions?

Bobo · February 13, 2014, 9:24am