Questions about multi character vs. Multi npc combat

Burning Wheel Subsystem Advice and Guidance
1

Howdy all,

Our group is new to BW and we have gone through ‘the sword’ and then burned characters. We also ran through some mock DoW, RaC, and Fight, usually all one vs. one to practice. Tonight we started with the campaign and the first few hours were great, we did some generic adventure tests and obstacles and such not and everyone was happy, we had a bit of time at the end and we decided to try a larger combat, we were fairly confused the whole time. Let me describe the set up and then try and explain what we did, any suggestions on what we did wrong or how to do it better next time would be great!

So the party was traveling with a merchant caravan that had stopped for the night. Some PC’s and npc’s were sleeping, some were on watch. Some goblins tried and succeed on sneaking up on the group. The Goblins made a sneak roll and the players on watch made a observation roll. They failed, I rolled for the npc guards as well, they failed as well. The players and npc’s make a steel test and note their delay in combat. Three goblins step out of the woods, hoot and holler and start throwing javelins. They maintain distance to their target and throw javelins for the rest of the encounter, basically dumb test targets. One PC is with in range of the goblins along with one npc, the other npc guard and PC are on the other end of the camp.

So the goblins engage at this point, we tried RaC to begin with as it seemed appropriate, we assumed the two people closest to the goblins were their targets, the first two volley’s the goblins are unopposed, so they easily make their optimal range test and then begin throwing javelins. Both the guard npc and player are wearing armor and a shield so mostly the javelins just fall harmlessly. One quick problem we ran into is how to do a range test against someone who is still hesitating, we just assumed it was an Ob 1 test? Next was did the shield cover bonus count for someone who is hesitating, finally what about armor test in the same situation?

On the third volley the PC’s started to move again. One quick question is how far can a PC not in combat move while others are in combat, or put another way, how far can you move in one volley? We were trying to figure out how long it would take to raise the alarm or wake people while the fight was going. The PC in combat tried to close with a goblin and failed so we assumed that meant he was out of range to engage with his sword so they were still at R&C rules, but then we changed our minds and tried to switch to FIGHT rules as this could allow everyone ranged and melee to work together.

Everyone made a speed test, either vs. if a goblin was actively trying to keep you at range or with an Ob.1 if it was unopposed, this allowed most characters to run across the camp instantly and engage the goblins (for some it was a 100 pace run?) The goblins still just stand there and throw javelins, they had a reflex of 4, so I gave them two actions to throw on volley 1 and another on volley 2 and volley 3. We still had someone using a bow at range, I assumed as they passed their engage test they could stand at range and shoot, it would just take them six actions to fire one shot, or in this case they would fire their first arrow on the 1st volley of the second turn.

The PC with a sword again fails to engage, so now he has a +3Ob to his strike, but he is still at Optimal range for the Goblin, which we assumed was around 15 paces (1/2 max?) So to me this sorta implies the PC needs to throw his sword, but we assume he doesn’t do that, maybe he lunges? either way at a +3Ob he misses. Now the Goblin attacks with a +2D but I guess he is cedeing his position, but not quite sure why? So, now the other players start swinging, the goblins are not paying attention to them so its a bunch of Ob1 tests. This leads to the goblins starting to take dmg and making steel tests.

We have a sorcery character who was casting at range, but at this point it had been nearly 30-40 minutes (were looking up a lot of rules of course) and the player with the bow (her character was asleep to begin with) was still standing there drawing, so we just gave her a sword and let her engage as well to get her involved. On the second volley of the first turn the goblin starts to throw but doesn’t finish until volley 3. The PC with a sword has two actions in volley 2, first he blocks and strikes, so he stands there and blocks nothing as the goblin is just pulling back his arm, then strikes the goblin. Then his second action is to just strike again, so the goblin just stands there for two actions getting hit I guess and finishes his throw on the third volley assuming he didn’t get wounded or has passed his steel tests?

Shortly after this the goblins went down, I made them fairly wimpy to get a flavor for combat, but it still revealed many areas where we didn’t understand or play the combat rules correctly. Any suggestions on how we could have done this better or smoother, or specific rules we might have missed? I did leave out many of the armor tests and such not here as it didn’t seem relevant to my question, we seem to have that section under control.

Thanks!
Scott

2

Heads up, it’s generally considered a bad practice to bust out the full conflict systems (Fight, R&C, DoW) on new players. You should probably start by handling combats with the Bloody Versus mechanic found on page 26 of BWG, and only work up to the advanced systems when the players are confortable with the core rules.

But anyway, here’s how positioning in Fight works. At the start of the combat, everyone involves declare whether they will Engage or Withdraw; further more, those who chose Engage must declare who they are engaging against (they can only pick one target). Then, everyone rolls a speed test, with the person with the highest result getting their intent. After that, go around the group in order from highest to lowest, with each person getting their intent, unless it conflicts with the intent of someone who rolled higher than them. If multiple people end up engaged against the same person, that’s cool; buddy system applies to wanton acts of violence just like everything else. If you end up with engagements consisting of multiple characters on each side, break them up into one on one or multi on one engagements according to the preferences of whoever rolled the higest. Further, if you successfully engage someone who has a different weapon length from you, you put them at disadvantage and they take an Ob penalty to all non-defensive actions against you: look the up their penalty in the table on page 431, and start laying the beat down on them. Important to note, wining positioning doesn’t give you any extra dice to hitting them; the advantage table on page 436 only applies to future positioning tests to maintain advantage.

As for characters being able to instantly engage opponents who are 100 yards away from them: if you are that far from the fray at the start of combat, I would not allow you to participate until you had done some thing to close the distance. The world record for 100 meter dash currently stands at between 9 and 10 seconds. Bear in mind that a volley lasts for about a second, so it should a minimum of 9 volleys (three exchanges) for the fastest humans in the world to cross 100 meters (possibly less for elves of other explicity superhuman characters). Just make a judgement call for how long you think it should take them to get there, and let them engage when they do. If you want, you could have them make a graduated speed test to reduce the amount of time it takes.

3

Hello and welcome!

Taelor’s advice is good. I’ll see if I can add anything to help, though.

Some PC’s and npc’s were sleeping, some were on watch. Some goblins tried and succeed on sneaking up on the group. The Goblins made a sneak roll and the players on watch made a observation roll. They failed, I rolled for the npc guards as well, they failed as well. The players and npc’s make a steel test and note their delay in combat. Three goblins step out of the woods, hoot and holler and start throwing javelins. They maintain distance to their target and throw javelins for the rest of the encounter, basically dumb test targets. One PC is with in range of the goblins along with one npc, the other npc guard and PC are on the other end of the camp.
Okay, if it were me, I’d have had one of the players roll Observation with help dice from all the PCs and NPCs that were capable of helping.

So the goblins engage at this point, we tried RaC to begin with as it seemed appropriate, we assumed the two people closest to the goblins were their targets, the first two volley’s the goblins are unopposed, so they easily make their optimal range test and then begin throwing javelins. Both the guard npc and player are wearing armor and a shield so mostly the javelins just fall harmlessly. One quick problem we ran into is how to do a range test against someone who is still hesitating, we just assumed it was an Ob 1 test? Next was did the shield cover bonus count for someone who is hesitating, finally what about armor test in the same situation?
In R&C, you don’t hesitate for multiple volleys like you do in Fight. The amount of time is different. Hesitation lasts for one volley. Taking a shot opportunity is always at a base Ob 2, regardless of hesitation. I wouldn’t give a shield bonus to someone who was Standing & Drooling. Run Screaming has its own rules about dropping stuff. Check pages 419-420 for more stuff on hesitation. You still get to make armor tests as normal in R&C if you’re hesitating. Ranged shots are always assumed to be hitting the torso.

Everyone made a speed test, either vs. if a goblin was actively trying to keep you at range or with an Ob.1 if it was unopposed, this allowed most characters to run across the camp instantly and engage the goblins (for some it was a 100 pace run?) The goblins still just stand there and throw javelins, they had a reflex of 4, so I gave them two actions to throw on volley 1 and another on volley 2 and volley 3. We still had someone using a bow at range, I assumed as they passed their engage test they could stand at range and shoot, it would just take them six actions to fire one shot, or in this case they would fire their first arrow on the 1st volley of the second turn.
I agree with Taelor about the speed tests. However, I always assume that people are moving during the Fight. The bowman would be getting closer, circling, adjusting to get the shot, rather than just staying in one place. Also, keep in mind that, when you script Release Bow, you cede the advantage to your opponent - you range advantage goes away, and you’re left holding a club.

The PC with a sword again fails to engage, so now he has a +3Ob to his strike, but he is still at Optimal range for the Goblin, which we assumed was around 15 paces (1/2 max?) So to me this sorta implies the PC needs to throw his sword, but we assume he doesn’t do that, maybe he lunges? either way at a +3Ob he misses. Now the Goblin attacks with a +2D but I guess he is cedeing his position, but not quite sure why? So, now the other players start swinging, the goblins are not paying attention to them so its a bunch of Ob1 tests. This leads to the goblins starting to take dmg and making steel tests.
If you’re in Fight, you don’t worry about range. You either have the advantage or not. Also, remember that people are moving all the time. The swordsman is lunging and darting in trying to get past the goblin’s longer weapon. The goblin cedes advantage when he throws because he goes from having a javelin in his hands to no longer having a javelin in his hands. He doesn’t have anything to hold off the swordsman at that point.

We have a sorcery character who was casting at range, but at this point it had been nearly 30-40 minutes (were looking up a lot of rules of course) and the player with the bow (her character was asleep to begin with) was still standing there drawing, so we just gave her a sword and let her engage as well to get her involved. On the second volley of the first turn the goblin starts to throw but doesn’t finish until volley 3. The PC with a sword has two actions in volley 2, first he blocks and strikes, so he stands there and blocks nothing as the goblin is just pulling back his arm, then strikes the goblin. Then his second action is to just strike again, so the goblin just stands there for two actions getting hit I guess and finishes his throw on the third volley assuming he didn’t get wounded or has passed his steel tests?
For characters that are present in the scene, but not engaged with an enemy for whatever reason, check the Eye of the Storm section on page 457. I’ve had a few times where the Sorcerer spent an exchange where she wasn’t being engaged by an opponent using actions to cast long spells, then engaging in the next Exchange. Your assessment of the scripting is looks correct to me. It’s painful fighting someone faster than you.

Hope there was some stuff in there that helps!

4

Thank you, Shaun and Taelor!

I completely forgot about the bloody versus rules but hopefully your suggestions will give me a hand when we try the advanced rules again in the future.

Cheers,
Scott

5

I made this same mistake too and it soured a few people on the game for what I thought was forever. I’ve only recently gotten them to give it a second shot, and I ran a one-off to show them that I had learned my lessons; I used none of the advanced systems and just ran a fast paced adventure, and they loved it.

I recommend, as the others have, that you do the same. Get used to the pacing of introducing conflicts that challenge beliefs and continually “failing forward”. Once you have that down, slap one of these advanced systems on them. Next session, choose another.