Questions / rule clarifications for new players

Torchbearer An Adventurer's Essentials
1

Hi,
first of all I and my group decided to try out T2E and currently really enjoy, although we only had 5 sessions and still many things to learn. During our first sessions we discussed some points / had a couple of questions which we either missed or read and forgot regarding the rules, so any help would be greatly appreciated:

  • Does help always have to be reasoned narratively and where do you draw the line? All 4 adventurers have the healer skill. Currently, all of them help when treating injuries which results in +3D for help, however in the fiction I do not think that more than 1 helper could effectively help when reating a wound (too many cooks…) and also it shifts the difficulty, making it far easier for a group of 4 than for example 2 (which makes sense for many conflicts, but not others like cooking or treating a wound) Is there a rule to limit the number of helpers or is it sufficient to say “you cannot adequately describe how you contribute”?

  • Relics can be chosen as benefits for level-ups. Are there other methods/rules to acquire additional relics for invocations (e.g. can they be purchased or crafted?)

  • In the LMM p144 there is an example for the toll of a long journey where the toll is 12, Asterios and Kjarr foaged (+1 toll on p. 145) and cooked (+2 toll on p.145) which is now a total toll of 15. Cook+Forage pay for 12, using raiment reduces the toll by 1 and then they use 1D which totals to toll 14. Where did we miss the last toll point?

  • Some traits like “between the worlds” seem very universal / generous. Can this trait really be used by a shaman every time when he performs an invocation (and is not over the usage limit)?

Thanks in advance, Chris

2

Hello and welcome!

Glad you are enjoying 2E!

Yes. We have a saying that, “Help has to help.” What this really means is that it needs to be plausible and do something different that adds to the action.

More than one helper can help with the same skill. They should describe things differently though if someone already has something covered. I think of an operating room, where there is a whole team of people helping with this or that. So, it definitely can work. However, it all depends on the situation. I don’t think the GM should really turn away help if the players are doing things to improve the situation–better for the GM to be generous here and play within the bounds of the skills that help.

Yes, but not by much. A group of 6 is the limit of what the dice pool can become. However, on the other side, there is a balancing factor that the other players are not advancing as much, not leveling up as much, and having to carry more supplies to support the machine. So, there are pros and cons, but the game can handle up to 6 well. It will work itself out.

Yes, most commonly, a theurge’s mentor gives them one at 3,5,7th level, but they are also found as seeded treasure, some random tables, or crafted from common materials (where applicable). The assumed setting of Torchbearer rejects the high-magic, high-fantasy tropes of magic vendors or the idea of selling or buying real magic. True magic is something that is not really trusted, and if it is real, then it is not easily given away. We can see how even the lowly hedge witch is relegated to the fringes of town. Here, encourage your players to be creative and seek out components to cobble together relics.

The player is responsible for describing how the trait fits the situation. The player cannot shoehorn it into every situation. There isn’t really a trait that can be used in every situation, but even if there were, the player could only use it once–so, it is not terribly imbalancing. If the invocation dealt with spirits or the Otherworld, then it would certainly apply. But things like finding water would not unless a spirit was directly involved (the GM had establed there was a spirit of the lake). The player cannot introduce things that have not been established.

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EDIT:
I think you are right in that it is not clear how the 2nd point of toll for the Cook was paid down.

The tolls should be:
Tarvas 4
Asterios 5 (+1 Forager)
Kjarr 6 (+2 Cook)

Unless the raiment is paying down both Asterios and Kjarr, and Asterios is then paying the remaining one with coin.

The cook role changed during some of the playtest revisions, so, I am guessing that it is possible that between revisions the example didn’t get updated to reflect the higher toll of the Cook role.

4

Thank you for the detailed response!
Our group consists of typically 3-4 players + GM so I think are in a nice spot for the dice pool, although from our (limited) experience 3+GM is the sweet spot.
Coming from systems where, as soon as the GM calls for a test, the narrative is put aside for calculations for “optimal” decisions solely based on artificial rules. Like you describe above, we still have to get accustomed to incorporate narrative descriptions which in TB have a mechnical feedback. But that is one of the reasons why we currently enjoy the system, together with the gritty fantasy setting where decisions outside of combat actually have consequences both from a narrative and mechanical point of view. Torchbearer is really a hidden gem (literally, it is nearly impossible to get it here in Europe).

5

The rule that limits how many people can help is this one, “If a player can’t describe a relevant action, they can’t help.”

If three other healers want to help, each one has to describe how they are individually helping. If a player says, “I want to help,” ask them to describe their helpful action. They may be able to surprise you with a good idea when you weren’t expecting it; but the situation may be such that they can’t think of anything or can’t think of anything you’d buy.

To clarify, in 2e, the Theurge always gets a Relic at the appropriate level up, and the GM chooses it.

They can be found in adventure locations where the GM has deliverately stocked them or rolled them on the loot tables; they can be rolled on the loot table from Twist Conflicts.

A player may proactively research the locations of relics and venture out to acquire them proactively.

I believe this is an error.

Sure, why not? The class traits are generally pretty easy to benefit from when doing things you’d expect the class to do. Warriors get to use Heart of Battle every time the party gets into a fight.

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Ah, and welcome to the forums!

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Thanks for the warm welcome and the additional clarifications!

There are two more things which we discussed in our group where some input from more experienced GMs/players would be great:

  • A very general question on the overall structure: How many turns do you on average play during one session? And although what are the average number of turns you play in the adventure phase before making camp? (Obviously this will vary heavily depending on whats going on in the adventure.)
  • Is it typical for the adventurers to leave the dungeon for each camp phase (to forage, hunt, cook,…)?
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In my experience, it really depends on the group. Some groups like to push through, while others are more deliberate.

In general, these are our averages for an experienced group:

  • 15-20 minutes per area (exploring, overcoming the obstacle, looting, etc)
  • 30-45 minutes per conflict

For a new group, the average might be:

  • 30 minutes per area
  • 1 hour per conflict

So if you have one or two conflicts, you might average 4-6 map areas per session.

I would say around 6-7 turns would be the average.

Some groups like to do the camp before the grind hits, which would be before the 4th test. That only goes so far and is pretty challenging. Then, I had one group that would go 12-15 turns before camping, but they were high level and well-equipped. I think this is something that the GM should think about when designing the dungeon. The GM places areas that are safer or more dangerous to camp. In so doing, controlling a lot of the pacing, plus deciding to twist or give conditions affects the pace. If you give conditions, players will want to clear them at some point. My GM design strategy would be to give twists early to burn up gear and supplies, and then give conditions on the way out of the dungeon. But really you need to find the balance and the proper mix for your dungeon.

I think it all depends on the dungeon. That seems like a sensible strategy for the players if it is possible to minimize and mitigate risk. However, that is not always possible. They would need a map to get back reliably, but if they did that, that seems like a smart play.

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Somewhere around five or six, probably. If there’s a really long conflict, that might go down.

I actually tracked the number of turns per adventure phase for our last adventure: 3, 8, 3, 11, 3, 14, 4.

Ultimately, I wiuld say no. It’s not typical. Though it’s not unusual, either. And there are some incentives for either case: Rangers get a +1 to Camp Events in wilderness; Outcasts get a +1 underground.

10

Thanks for sharing your experiences. We are currently on the slower side (the 30 min per area, ~45 min per conflict) and currently try to camp either very fast (camps at 3 turns, as the boardgamers within my group try to min-max wherever possible to remain fresh), or as soon as the next condition from the grind would occur. However, I should probably be more nasty with twists before the grind :wink:

11

Definitely encourage them to craft their own relics!
Our young theurge knew he needed to invoke the Malison of the Lords of Terror so he used the carcass of an animal to craft the grisly banner of flesh and bone required as a relic.
Of course, named relics can’t be crafted, but many of the lower Circle prayers’ relics just need some raw/common materials.

12

We had our next session yesterday and I your comments have been really helpful! Focussing more on more detailled narrative descriptions before allowing help really stimulated the players creative brain cells :slight_smile: Also, the shaman was able to craft an additional relic.
However when learning sumething new I think it’s typical that new questions arise:

  • Does the speciality skill have any mechanical implications apart from character creation? (One player now has a higher healer skill than the player which has chosen healer as speciality)
  • It is written that Fever Dreams (shaman lvl 2 benefit) gives +2D help for one turn. For a single test this is clear, but does this also mean tha in the case of a conflict, the bonus is for all dice rolls for that conflict?
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Specialty just means their area of interest/focus during their pre-murderhobo life. So yeah, I could specialize in Cook and never really use it during adventures except to help the burglar (who eventually turns into a 3’3" Gordon Ramsey).

A conflict counts as a turn as it relates to the Grind. See page 15 of the LMM:

If you share your vision with your companions before a test or conflict, your help is worth +2D rather than the standard +1D for that turn.

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Thanks for confirming our understanding of these two questions. As for specialty, we were not sure whether we missed a reference somewhere in the books to a related mechanic. Regarding the shaman visions, we understand that one conflict is one turn and wanted to make sure that we did notiss aj exception, as the +2D just seemed very strong when aiding for every roll the whole conflict. But our shaman will be happy about it.

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Just to clarify: help and aid are two different things — helping is done with a skill or ability and the helper is on the hook if their pal gets a condition from a failed test, whereas aiding is done with a wise. So using herb-wise to aid a Healer test wouldn’t grant +2D, but helping with the Healer skill would.

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I really hope not getting too annoyingnwith all those questions, but have another one regarding long journeys: Isnit really always better to not pay the last toll point? As wenread it, one toll could be payed with 1 water/wine + 1 ratio, but accepting hungry&thirsty from the grind can immediately afterwards be repealed by just drinking or eating, saving the other. Is this correct?

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Yep. Perfectly valid if you aren’t already hungry/thirsty. You’ll lose the fresh condition if you have it, though.

Also, feel free to ask questions! That’s what the forums are here for!

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You also may be able to pay the last point with Raiment’s Aegis. And that last point might be the first point, so maybe not always better.

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Thanks for the remarks about paying toll for long journeys!
As one of our adventurers had to pay the nost horrenduous price, the player is interested in playing a sorcerer starting with the next session.
Apart from the conflict rules for forming a pact we could not find much information on the effect/rules of a pact and have several questions:
How often are spirits present, should the GM make it easy for the sorcerer to find spirits or should he rely on summoning them with a gate?
And what are typical agreements/pacts between a character and an adventurer? Can a river spirit with suitable descriptors for example flood a cave? Should the gm do a haggle conflict with the player what the spirit is capable of? How long dies the spirit stay in service of the sorcerer, is this part if their agreement?

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I think that’s something you as a GM need to consider for your own interest. Spirits are a lot of fun to put in your adventured, but they can also be a bit of work. Personally, I’d say to go with what you interests you and let the player do the work of researching spirits to get their True Names to summon. But if you’re especially not interested in including spirits in your game, you might let your player know, and maybe advise them to play something else if they want you to help them out. Or else resolve to add in a few more spirits than you’d prefer.

The last three sentences of the “Pacts” heading offer examples. I don’t know that any of this is typical. The first example seems like an ongoing arrangement to offer Help; the last example seems like a one-time trade of one act of service for another.

Yeah. Maybe not if there was no river running through or near the cave.

/sic

If that is meant to be, “to determine what the spirit is capable of,” then no. The GM should already know what the spirit is and what it’s capable of before the Negotiation takes place. If the GM does have that info prepped, it seems like they’d need to make a determination in the moment. Of course, if the Sorcerer successfully did research to determine the True Name of a spirit with the requisite capability, and then summoned that spirit… Then, yeah, the spirit has the capability.

Yes, it’s just like any other negotiation. How long does a lawyer stay in your service? It depends, did you hire them to file for a motion? Then they file that motion and that’s it. Did you hire them to carry out a lawsuit? Then they work with you through the lawsuit. Did you put them on retainer? Then they work with you indefinitely, and you make recurring payments.