OK, guys, I know this isn’t a first reading, but I can’t seem to remember where to post just straight rules questions, so I’ll post here.
So I’m currently in my fourth session of a new campaign, and one of my players is not very happy with the way the game is being run, because I essentially hijacked the plot for a session or so. Now the player feels that her character is very undefined (because I essentially trampled all over her character concept like a bull in a china shop) and that she doesn’t really have anything invested in the plot. She still wants to try and fix this up, however. The rest of the characters are essentially untouched, it’s just this one person that I’ve gone and screwed up the gaming experience.
If you have any other questions if it appears I left something out, please ask. Thanks for you help in advance.
It sounds like you should just apologize—even if you don’t genuinely think you did anything wrong and your player is just being oversensitive—and solicit the player’s ideas for scenes she’d like to see her character in during the following session.
Not to contradict Luke (at least not this time ); more details would be helpful, but in terms of general situations like that that’s generally my approach.
GM should use her beliefs to hook her back in. If her beliefs really don’t fit, talk to her about writing new ones. Basically if her character isn’t interested in the plot, step one is to try to make the plot connected to her interests (threatening them is the usual way, but whatever works). If step one doesn’t fix it, step two is for her to decide to give her character a reason to care and be involved.
With more details (about the plot, her beliefs, the problem that occurred) we could make specific suggestions.
Or: ask the player if the current situation is of interest at all. If it’s not, explain what went wrong, that you’re still learning the game, and try to reset expectations.
But if the player is interested in the situation, coach them through some Belief rewriting. I would say it is a very good player skill to learn how to adapt Beliefs to the situation. While BW does accrete situation around Beliefs, it’s also on the players to accrete Beliefs around the situation. Give and take.
-This is my second Burning Wheel campaign (the first of which lasted 3 months, and was mostly spent trying to get the basic rules right). As a long-time DnD player I’ve got several bad habits that are sticking so incredibly badly, like keeping secrets so obsessively… and thus begins the downfall.
-The game’s original concept was that one of the characters would go through a Count of Monte Cristo betrayal, with the other PC’s doing the dirty deed.
-one of the player’s made a character with beliefs about ruthlessly advancing her family business, protecting her own private criminal past, and covering up family secrets. She did not say what these secrets were, and I did not ask.
The opening scenario were that three of the character were to attempt to break into the “businesswoman’s” house and get into a room in the basement, which was locked, and retrieve the item. I was told by the players to not tell them what was in the room, so I didn’t. I was sick as a dog for the next week, and couldn’t think of anything. I decided to make it up on the spot once I got there.
-My illness did not abate for the first full session, and I ran a very flat session. When the time came to open the room I STILL didn’t know what to put in, so I just randomly made up a man who could manipulate electricity through his body (climbing walls, killing people with a touch, etc).
-The second session only two of the four player could make it (one was sick with bronchitis and the player whom I’m writing this post about had to read 300 pages in a day, and was…detained), and that was an awesome session. Those two player are now fully invested in their characters, a wolf and a spider.
-The third session went relatively well, until I invented a family secret for the player that the man from the room was her brother!
And now we’re here. I’m pretty sure I messed up the character concept from the get-go, to the point to where she doesn’t know what to do with it, because she feels like the character isn’t even hers anymore.
I guess the moral of the story is to never run a Burning Wheel session when you’re sick… oh, and don’t make up family secrets for someone.
One thing that strikes me is that this game has a very strong player-versus-player bent. The Sword is structured like this, but it’s mostly to keep the conflict contained between players who are learning the rules. Most BW games are not this intensely PvP. Normally I want the characters to have a common goal that will survive whatever tension we set up for them.
The problem with intense PvP conflict is that it can cause the game to short circuit - if the inherent conflict between characters is revealed too early, the game can blow up on the launch pad and instead of a short arc you just get a fight.
The GM making up family secrets is fine - the problem seems to me that the not just the businesswoman’s character, but the whole arc seems to revolve around these undisclosed secrets. If she’s going to be angry or disappointed when the secrets don’t live up to her expectations, then they’d better be on the table during game burning. That way, the other players have the opportunity to make characters that are all about her secret.
On the other hand, she might feel that her character’s history is her territory. That’s a common implicit understanding from games where a character’s backstory is basically irrelevant. You decide what tribe or orcs brutally murdered your parents before you got into adventuring, and we’ll never mention it again. Perhaps she intended to use ‘undisclosed secrets’ as a vehicle for bringing in her own creations, later in the game, and wanted you to keep your hands off it. I… don’t think Burning Wheel works super well this way.
This right here. This is where your problem starts. Making a character is like entering into a compact with the other people at the table (player and GM alike). They agree that they will make a place in the story for your character, and you agree to find a way to make your character’s involvement in the story awesome. Niether side can fufill their end of the bargain unless everyone is being upfront about what they’re bringing to the table.
The GM making up family secrets is fine - the problem seems to me that the not just the businesswoman’s character, but the whole arc seems to revolve around these undisclosed secrets. If she’s going to be angry or disappointed when the secrets don’t live up to her expectations, then they’d better be on the table during game burning. That way, the other players have the opportunity to make characters that are all about her secret.
On the other hand, she might feel that her character’s history is her territory. That’s a common implicit understanding from games where a character’s backstory is basically irrelevant. You decide what tribe or orcs brutally murdered your parents before you got into adventuring, and we’ll never mention it again. Perhaps she intended to use ‘undisclosed secrets’ as a vehicle for bringing in her own creations, later in the game, and wanted you to keep your hands off it. I… don’t think Burning Wheel works super well this way.
Actually, so far the inter-character conflict hasn’t been a problem at all. Everyone seems alright for the moment.
I think it was mostly the fact that she hadn’t had the opportunity to work out what those secrets were, and wanted to be able to define it. She feels hijacked.
Does the businesswoman have Family Secrets-wise? Even using Beginner’s Luck, she could have tested it to bring it relevant information either when she deemed it appropriate or at your prompting.
My gaming group is definitely new to burning wheel. I just started GMing our second game, and one thing I found really helpful was doing an entire session of character/belief/instinct/world burning. I was scouring the forums, and everyone seemed to be saying the same thing. Come up with a basic conflict. Then, let the game evolve from the characters beliefs and instincts, so we sat down and mutually decided on a basic feel for the game. We then decided on a basic conflict going on in the setting and came up with character concepts simultaneously that way the character concepts fit the conflict and vice versa. After that we workshopped the crap out of their beliefs and instincts, trying to tie them to the setting and the conflict as much as possible. Finally after that was done, they did the math, and actually burnt up their characters. I can say, from a subjective stand point that taking the time to do those things and really getting everyone on the same page has helped this second game of ours to really monopolize on a lot of the unique mechanics and ideas in burning wheel. Our first game, has been a lot of fun, but it definitely feels a lot like other rpgs, which in my opinion tend to lend themselves to problems like the one your having. In so many other systems, its all about the GM coming up with a story and thrusting the PCs into the middle of it. Burning wheel provides some great mechanics to make the PCs really drive the story, and as hard as it is for me (a lifetime DM/GM) to adjust to this new way of doing things, I’m finding out that it really pays off. I’m trying to use everything that the PCs put on their sheets, as the basis for the game, and I’m just coming up with scenarios to challenge the things they’ve written. Going off of those ideas, I would avoid using an NPC with past ties to a PC, unless they bought a relationship with them. Don’t be afraid to make the PCs take a while in character burning, so thing’s like “family secrets” can be fleshed out. Also, encourage them to spend rps on things like relationships etc. because those things lay the groundwork for a great game. Once again I’m definitely a burning wheel noobie, so you can take my advice with a grain of salt.
I don’t know if these things can help recover your game, but it may be worth while to take a week and works some of those things out, so everyone can be on the same page.
I know my previous post was more broad and not very concrete advice, so I’ve been thinking about your specific problem. It sounds like the brother is good belief bait, but what’s the hook you’re gonna hang him on? There should be something abut him that specifically baits/challenges her beliefs (most likely the one about covering up family secrets). Perhaps his strange abilities are the result of some eldritch mark that is taboo in your game world, or maybe certain types of magic in general are forbidden in your world, so the family locked him away, out of shame. Maybe he is cursed, or maybe it’s a much more mundane explanation, like he’s a bastard. Those are some of my suggestions for tying him into the PCs belief. This ultimately may not be what the PC had in mind, but at this point they should do their best to work with you, and if they don’t particularly care for this story direction, you can attempt to bring that particular segment to a close quickly then let them drive the game more in the direction they’d like. Finally, it’s not ideal, but some times when you hit a certain point in a very PvP game, it becomes preferable for one of your PCs to become an NPC (this is one area where I feel like the same page tool I posted before really comes in handy). If the character has genuinely lost interest in their character and would rather burn a new one, their old character can always become an NPC.
First, apologize to the player about stepping on her toes. Then, talk to her about what she actually intends for that character, and try to work out some boundries deliminating what is and is not available to be defined by who. If she wants, she can still leave things undefined and define them in play using wises and/or circles; the important part is that you come to a mutual understanding about how play should proceed.
Honestly, I don’t think you did anything wrong here from a game point of view. She has a belief about covering up family secrets and it’s your job to challenge that belief. Somebody has to bring the secrets to the table or else the belief is just dead weight. I don’t really see how you could challenge that belief without either you or her inserting a secret at some point.
I understand less the notion that by inserting a plot hook directly relevant not only to her character, but also to her beliefs - the things she wrote to tell you what she wanted to see in the game - that somehow you have spoiled her character. Does having a brother spoil her character? I really don’t understand. You say she feels hijacked, but there’s absolutely no reason why she can’t bring into play other family secrets - hers ought to be a family with many secrets. If the problem is that what you’ve set up contradicts something that she had in mind but wasn’t telling you… well welcome to RPGs I guess. If you don’t put it out there in the Shared Imagined Space, it’s not part of the game and can very much be contradicted (unless you step in immediately and say “Wait! I actually had something else in mind. How about…”). This is why keeping secrets in RPGs is risky for GMs and players alike.
Like, obviously this is something that you guys need to work through cooperatively and I don’t think you should come out and blame her by any means… but I think the error is primarily on her end. I’m not sure she understands what beliefs are for or how to play them. Do a belief-writing workshop using the links others have sent and make sure that the things she and all the other players write down this time are:
actionable
things they want their characters to act on
things they want you (and the other players) to focus on
things they want to be challenged on
things that can be brought into conflict with one another and with other players’ beliefs
I tend to agree with Jimbozig when it comes to this issue. It looks like what you have is a blown up version of typical RPG conflict between players and the GM. Everybody is always planning things (though sometimes it’s just your plan for a combat strategy) and due to the nature of the genre plans are going to have to change based on what everybody else is doing. I don’t think it’s a good idea that she kept her family secrets hidden, even from you, because you end up with situations like this. Now maybe she was mad that you sort of “assigned” her family secrets, and I can accept that, but the fact is the family secrets NEED to exist for this game to have any kind of meat to it, and by her choosing to play things close to the chest it kind of forced you to come up with stuff on the fly. Because character backstory is so important in BW, you really need to have concrete facts OR be prepared to have that stuff dictated.
I agree with Taelor as well, and you should apologize to her. You guys have made your bed, and now you have to lie in it, so to speak, so definitely get her input moving forward to try to rope her back into the flow of the game. Maybe back off and let her character take the lead for a little bit now that you’ve had your fun, and give her a chance to make some progress towards her Beliefs and challenge them appropriately without trying to insert too much extra information.
In my mind, the important thing to remember is that BW is all about the shared space. If it’s not out there, you can’t engage it. But with BW you HAVE to engage these deep, hidden things in order to make compelling gameplay. It’s super important to separate player knowledge and character knowledge, and I feel that this is the key to handling “secrets.” My PCs occasionally have hidden agendas and deep, dark pasts, but the difference is that generally all of the players (at least me) are aware of them. They don’t roleplay with that knowledge, but it creates interesting situations where players can subtly change their reactions and decisions to prod at another player’s “secrets”–without overtly acknowledging or undermining it–in order to create serious conflicts that actually serve to spotlight the player with the hidden past and give him plenty of opportunities to earn Artha and to have some memorable scenes.
It really boils down to the difference between RPGs and regular fiction.
Did you create this complicated, secret back story because you enjoy creating them, and want to keep it as your own? Then don’t bring it and your character to a BW session (or any RPG, really), and if you do be prepared that the other players and characters will prod, poke and outright assault this back story and your secrets.
If you just wanted to impress others with your nice imagination, then post it in a fan fic forum instead. Maybe you’ll become Stephenie Meyer!
); more details would be helpful, but in terms of general situations like that that’s generally my approach.