I don’t have Blossoms, but from my limited knowledge of later era Japanese philosophy, I see similarities there.
Being an honorable man never prevents great acts of shame. Having shame in the past also doesn’t exclude one as being honorable, like one of my favorite stories out of the Hagakure.
They are two independent conditions, with implications of their own. Greed and its interactions with Steel are as close as I get with Burning Wheel. Maybe I should check out Orc Hatred as well.
Maybe thinking like the Paragon/Renegade options in Mass Effect. Dunno. Still putting it all together.
Thinking about it some more, I don’t want to go all the way to Burning Wheel, but I can’t ignore it for ideas.
I still think David’s Weasels, as reimagined by Luke & David for the RPG, remind me of the Sith, just like the Mouse Guard remind me of the Jedi. There’s something about that interaction that works for me.
So, I’m thinking a second Nature because we have rules for Nature already. Sucks to keep track of something else, but “suck it”, I say.
The Dark Side nature thing will be easy to use, and easy to find uses for, just like Nature (Weasel) has all sorts of things to make the Weasels more nasty & sneaky & powerful than Mice. Something like:
Aggressive, Deceiving, Cruelty, Revenge
Like Dwarven Greed, the Dark Side doesn’t go away. So you can’t tax it. Maybe you can only use it when you work within the Dark Side nature, so it never can be taxed… but then the Aspects have to be written so it’s easy to use it & tap the power of the Dark Side.
Interactions for the Dark Side nature… like Greed, there has to be a test that results in bad stuff ™ if there’s a failure.
The easiest mechanical thing is to Tax. Tax Jedi Nature if you fail the test. Another mechanical thing to do would be to throw down a Condition, but I haven’t thought that far ahead yet.
So…
Why would you ever tap the Dark Side?
Because Jedi Nature sucks? Jedi Nature has to be written so that it’s handcuffing & difficult to work within, especially within the style of story that is being told. As I was reminded in the first thread, Nature is not necessarily a help. It’s kind of a overarching Obstacle.
As long as the story & the Obstacles push against Jedi Nature, then tapping the Dark Side is going to be something that the players will be getting at… I think.
The implications for this include the fact that Luke was actually wrong about his father; Vader could not be brought back from the Dark Side. (Note that this doesn’t invalidate what occurs in Return of the Jedi, it merely reframes the events, and it may actually be a good thing for your game, story-wise. I just wanted to point this out.) I understand your rationale for not wanting it to be taxed, but I kind of want to argue the opposite.
If you want your Mouse Nature to advance, you have to use it chiefly in situations where you won’t get Taxed, because otherwise you just deplete your rating that much faster (and eventually permanently lower it). It’s already risky to advance because of Tax, it’s not something you can do in a short period of time the way you can with skills, because you have to wait for Tax to recover on the Nature tests you fail (which are also required to eventually advance).
That means if a player wants his character to fall to the Dark Side with this Nature hack, he has to actually work towards it, and it has to take some time. 3 movies isn’t enough time to push your Dark Side Nature high enough! Personally, I think that’s a feature, not a bug. Secondly, it means if a player wants to lower his Dark Side Nature, he has to invoke the Dark Side…and then recant. You can’t just go “oh, I’m tapping Dark Side” and act like that doesn’t have implications. Even if you’re not acting within the Dark Side descriptors, whatever they may be, if you’re calling upon the Dark Side to aid you you’re being all dark and impulsive and whatever. And then you fail, or succeed but you weren’t being cruel or seeking vengeance or whatever, and your character turns from the Dark Side path.
To me, that’s the benefit of using Dark Side as an alternate Nature. Tax is part of the struggle, the ebb and flow of it all. But that’s just my take on it. And if you’re going with this route, I’d have some Dark Side Nature questions during recruitment, the same as Nature, so characters will probably start with a 3-5 rating in it. “In times of stress, are you eager or impatient to get things done? +1 Dark Side. You may not take the Patient trait.”
Yeah, that’s the fundamental question for Anakin-Darth Vader: Is redemption from the Dark Side equal to a new life, or simply ending the tragic existence?
The other question is: what would you call Luke Skywalker? And what is his interaction with the Dark Side? Did he use the Dark Side to get things done?
Since I don’t read Star Wars novels or comics, in general, the only other source I’d look at would be Knights of the Old Republic video games, where one Dark Lord of the Sith was “mind wiped” through the Force, and then potentially returns to the Light side. This is extremely outside of the Lucas movies, however, and doesn’t necessarily help shape the question of what happens if you turn from the Dark Side.
Of course, the taxing the Dark Side means you can change course mid-stream, not just delay the Fall. Can/should you do that? Is mini-redemption possible, or is redemption only possible after the Fall?
I was also thinking that, for Jedi, Nature (Jedi) acts as a kind of ceiling for the Jedi skill.
I see the Jedi skill kind of like the Prana Bindu equivalent in Burning Sands, substitutable for some skill checks… like the Fighter equivalent for Lightsaber actions, Health for Disposition in a Fight, and so on.
BUT… then you don’t even need the Skill if you have the Nature.
Why have a Jedi/Force User skill at all? And then this will drive a lot more things through Nature, and force tests & tax…
Anyway…
I’m thinking every use of the Dark Side requires a test, like Greed & I Must Have It!
Nature (Jedi) versus Dark Side. Failure means instant Tax on Nature (Jedi).
The only thing about Tax & the Dark Side… it’s hard to define a “good” use of the Dark Side aside from throwing your Master down a reactor exhaust vent/bottomless pit that some moron put in someone’s throne room, which almost gets me to thinking about the Kung Fu thing about killing a Master in order to gain his Ki/energy/lifeforce.
That’s the theoretical difficulty for me: how do you use the Dark Side for good, and then make it better for your Dark Side rating? Short of destroying evil (which is almost every case for Jedi)…
I’ll have to ponder it some more.
Noted. I will have to consider Tax & the Dark Side nature concept a little more.
I was thinking just a blanket assignment of Dark Side for a non-taxable Nature (i.e. “All Padawan Learners start with a Dark Side rating of 1. All Jedi Masters start with Dark Side of 3.”)… but questions & Jedi burning implications are better, especially if you can redeem yourself.
I was also thinking of adding questions to character creation since some of them get taken out, like what was the trade of your mentor, and the whole question of parentage (unless you are Anakin). Questions would be the standard Dark Side enablers… like “What does your character Fear the most?”
Those are most not throwaway questions in Mouse burning, but they have to be recast for Star Wars.
Why not the opposite? A padawan must fight against his own natural inclinations to violence. Try not to be aggressives or selfish. Remembrer the cave in Dagobah? You must face your own fears, or fall to them. A Jedi Master has already done that. He’s less vulnerable, I think.
I set it with Padawan Learner - Dark Side:1 & Jedi Master - Dark Side: 3 in the system where Corruption only grows (no Tax for Dark Side), and also because Masters have more power & more capacity to Fall (like the very honorable Samurai, and his capacity to commit shameful acts in the name of his Lord, as opposed to the new Samurai retainer & his ability to act in the name of his liege).
A Padawan naturally acts with less Control, with more violence. Tapping Fear & Anger results in less because the Padawan already acts out of those instincts due to his lack of mastery. The Master gains more power through Fear & Anger because he isn’t already using those aspects of his animal nature.
Well, if we’re going with the dual-Nature setup, I’d say Luke’s got a small-to-medium Dark Side Nature himself, yeah.
…holy shit. Dual-Nature Jedi are going to be insanely good. When guardmice Tax their Nature down to 1 or 2, tapping it with persona points begins to appeal less. A Jedi can Tax his Jedi Nature down to 1 or 2 and still potentially have a 3 or 4 Dark Side Nature left to resort to. Damn.
Of course, the taxing the Dark Side means you can change course mid-stream, not just delay the Fall. Can/should you do that? Is mini-redemption possible, or is redemption only possible after the Fall?
Those questions are for you, my man. This is your hack. I’m just offering perspectives and bouncing ideas.
I was also thinking that, for Jedi, Nature (Jedi) acts as a kind of ceiling for the Jedi skill.
I see the Jedi skill kind of like the Prana Bindu equivalent in Burning Sands, substitutable for some skill checks… like the Fighter equivalent for Lightsaber actions, Health for Disposition in a Fight, and so on.
BUT… then you don’t even need the Skill if you have the Nature.
Why have a Jedi/Force User skill at all? And then this will drive a lot more things through Nature, and force tests & tax…
Well, guardmice can use Nature instead of a skill they don’t have, remember? Instead of Beginner’s Luck? I dunno. I think if you blend lightsaber fighting and stuff into Jedi Nature, it risks the dichotomy between beings who are supposed to be passive and calm yet who are forced into action. I wouldn’t tie the Nature to the fighty-type skill, or any other skill really. If you did that, just ditch the skill, use Nature, and make the tags (Force User, lightsabers, ass-kicking) and go whole hog.
Anyway…
I’m thinking every use of the Dark Side requires a test, like Greed & I Must Have It!
Nature (Jedi) versus Dark Side. Failure means instant Tax on Nature (Jedi).
At first I go “no, no, too many tests!” But you know, I kinda like that. The Dark Side asserts primacy over your better Nature. That may not be such a bad idea. Might make advancement weird, might actually be cool. I’d have to see that at the table.
The only thing about Tax & the Dark Side… it’s hard to define a “good” use of the Dark Side aside from throwing your Master down a reactor exhaust vent/bottomless pit that some moron put in someone’s throne room, which almost gets me to thinking about the Kung Fu thing about killing a Master in order to gain his Ki/energy/lifeforce.
That’s the theoretical difficulty for me: how do you use the Dark Side for good, and then make it better for your Dark Side rating? Short of destroying evil (which is almost every case for Jedi)…
I’ll have to ponder it some more.
What are you talking about, “good” use? The point of the Dark Side is that it’s not for good, it’s for selfish and impulsive reasons. What’s the question here?
Yeah, I hope Jedi have that kick-ass feeling… but, as you say, tapping into the Dark Side is going to need to have consequences.
I want the Dark Side to be part of the equation, and an attractive one as well. Burn down your Nature, and then go happily over the edge with the Dark Side.
What makes sense as a consequence will be important, though. I’ll keep thinking about little mechanics to mess with.
Part of it is struggling with parallel skills. Duelist (for Lightsaber use), Pilot (when starfighters like the Delta-7 Aethersprite & Eta-2 Actis were designed to work better because of enhanced Jedi reflexes & intuition)… and then having some Jedi skill on top that can substitute sometimes because Jedi are cool.
You see, there are two kinds of people: those who can use a Katana, and then there are storybook Samurai.
(Il buono: “You see in this world there’s two kinds of people, my friend. Those with loaded guns, and those who dig.”)
There are people who can fly a spaceship, and then there are Jedi.
I want that separation. I want a definition that says, “Jedi on one side, everyone else on the other.”
There’s Clint Eastwood, and a bunch of dead guys in the Westerns.
And on the one hand, if I can say “Jedi skill can be used as a Wise for Pilot & Duelist” & “Battle Mystic can be used as a Wise for Commander”, then I can get what I want. I guess that’s the answer. I should go with the skill. Make some specific benefits for being a Jedi (including those “Battle Mystics” who are blessed with Battle Meditation), and then figure out how the skills interact with Nature (Jedi).
It’s that interaction between Jedi skill & Jedi nature that move off into uncharted territory, which is a pain in the ass because I have to be creative more than intuitive with the source RPG material.
Yeah. The advancement thing is definitely going to get a workout, but Mouse Guard doesn’t have the same complexity of advancement as Burning Wheel… and I’m not stealing those tables from BW (trying to stay as true to MG under-the-hood as possible), so we’ll just have to see how it plays out with what existing in MG.
I do kind of like the idea of Jedi nature & the Dark Side ping-ponging all over the place, though.
Figuring out an explanation for taxing it. That’s the question.
Nature (Mouse) goes away if you act really un-Mousely with your nature. Nature (Jedi) does the same with Jedi things. Thus, Dark Side nature should get a Tax if you tap into the Dark Side to do something non-Dark Side.
I just don’t know how you use the Dark Side ever to accomplish something good, and get rewarded for it (taxing it to bring it down). It doesn’t seem right to ever give in to corruption & then be able to tax down your corruption.
In that situation, I’m thinking sliding scale, using the same scale, which I didn’t like previously. 7 minus Nature (Jedi) equals Dark Side. Ah, fudge.
Either/any of these philosophies can work. I guess I’ll have to feel it out some more in my head.
Is there a reason we can’t accept that as ‘tapping Jedi Nature and adding a shedload of dice by spending a persona point’? I mean, I don’t know dick about any Delta-7 anything, but when I see the Boy Wonder in a podrace thinger, I figure he’s a) substituing Jedi Nature for a skill he doesn’t have, or b) I Am Jedi-ing his Nature into his Pilot skill and tapping Nature on top of it.
Figuring out an explanation for taxing it. That’s the question.
Nature (Mouse) goes away if you act really un-Mousely with your nature. Nature (Jedi) does the same with Jedi things. Thus, Dark Side nature should get a Tax if you tap into the Dark Side to do something non-Dark Side.
I just don’t know how you use the Dark Side ever to accomplish something good, and get rewarded for it (taxing it to bring it down). It doesn’t seem right to ever give in to corruption & then be able to tax down your corruption.
In that situation, I’m thinking sliding scale, using the same scale, which I didn’t like previously. 7 minus Nature (Jedi) equals Dark Side. Ah, fudge.
Either/any of these philosophies can work. I guess I’ll have to feel it out some more in my head.
Well, easy. If Dark Side’s descriptors are about hatred and such, then whenever you tap Dark Side (in a moment of emotion/passion) but you’re not being hateful and cruel and whatnot, you’re doing something non-Dark Side. I envision Skywalker doing this a couple times during the films. (And yes, probably a couple times in hatred, as well.)
It’d be the same as tapping Jedi when you aren’t being calm, passive and so on.
Guys, do not miss the forest for the trees. (or the trees for the forest) Pick what works, generally. Ignore the “yeah, but in Episode PLLLFFFT” or “In the expanded universe…” comments. Go with the common denominators. Why? The movies don’t care about MG Nature. At all. Therefore, you’re making the hack rules fit around the canon, not the canon around the hack rules. Ignore exceptions. Make the game work and let the game’s story do its own thing in play.
Alright, then all Jedi handwavium goes through Nature. No Jedi skill. Easier bookkeeping, and Nature is set up already.
Floating a Lightsaber across the room just happens. No contest, no skill, don’t check everything just to be a prick GM.
In an actual Contest, the Force & the Jedi stuff all gets subsumed under the banner of Nature (Jedi) since no one without training in the Jedi arts can push Nature in this setting.
I still might have to go with the Battle Meditation thing, though. I want to drag Seasons into this, albeit in a heavily modified way.
…
Dark Side…
If the Dark Side can be taxed, I guess I’d rather run it under the spectrum idea where Light/Dark run under the same scale (even if that didn’t sound right when someone suggested it before).
Dark Side = 7 minus Nature (Jedi)
Instead of tapping Nature, you can bang the Dark Side for even more power, which is especially true if you’re taxed.
Consequence of tapping Dark Side?
Automatic depletion (current max reduces by one), without restoring any tax (unlike normal depletion).
How is that? Pretty simple, mechanically, and only one pool of Nature, except that banging the Dark Side is progressively more attractive as your Nature (Jedi) depletes.
I think now you must have two separate Nature aspects: Light Side aspects and Dark Side aspects. You, the player, can choose to change an aspect at any time. If all your Nature aspects are Dark Side aspects, you are a Sith now. (Or maybe you can preserve a Light aspect with you, like Annakin did.) See a Jedi aspect requires a Force vs. Force contest, or maybe a Force vs. the Force exponent of the Jedi being observed.
To change an aspect requires a Nature vs. Nature test +1 Ob for extra aspect to be changed, and you need a Check to do it in the Player’s Turn and two Checks in the GM’s Turn. Change it back requires a Nature vs. Nature exponent + previous successes test, and you also need another Check or two to do it. (This must to be very hard.)
A Jedi should be able to choose the Dark Side if he wishes at any moment. It should be something that arises from within, not only when the dice are depleted too much.
But maybe your way is so much better. I just wanted to put this in writing.
I’ve read through most of this thread, since I’ve been giving some thought to a SW hack myself, after seeing the title. I think this touches on a couple of the points raised, but stop me if this has been covered before.
Also, a lot of this is still very tentative, so feel free to call me on any BS. I just tend to write voluminously…
Step 1: Rework the conditions. I imagine them as, in order, At Peace, Stressed, Drained, Injured and Distraught. Conditions make it easier to use the Dark Side (see below.)
Step 2: Force and Dark Side connections are rated separately, but there is no Tax, only permanent reductions/increases. Force connection advances as a skill, but not the Dark Side.
Step 3: Dedicated skills for different uses of the Force, and to cover the variety of techniques shown in the movies (and possibly peripheral media.)
Force: Suggestion (this includes telepathic communication and hiding from force-sensitives.)
Force: Telekinesis (probably includes force-choke. …Is teleportation ever used as a Force ability?)
Force: Premonition (can act as a univeral ‘Wise’ or circles test.)
Force: Metabolism (can be used to self-heal or mutate other organism. Normally Dark Side.)
Force: Transduction (negate, reflect, or transmute raw energy or substances- includes Force Lightning.)
(There’s a corresponding decrease in the number of crafting skills, since they don’t come up to the same degree.) This allows Sith to tap what are normally regarded as ‘light side’ skills and avoids the problem of substituting Jedi Nature for everything.
What’s interesting here is that Sith get access to a number of techniques (genetic engineering and direct healing abilities, for example,) that certainly seem to have benign applications, but are normally taboo for being ‘unnatural’. One of the more interesting ‘takes’ on Force philosophy is that the Dark Side, or at least it’s associated techniques, aren’t inherently evil- that any technique can be used safely as long as your intent is gracious. Or, that all the Dark Side offers is power, pure and simple, and whether individual users are corrupted by that is their own choice. Something to consider, at least.
Step 4: Actual Force mechanics-
[i]
Drawing on the Force: Use your connection to the Force in place of any relevant skill, as long as your purpose is Defence, Perception or Self-Restraint. By spending a Persona point, you may ADD your connection to the Force to such rolls, along with wises, circles, or resources tests.
Drawing on the Dark Side: You may ADD your connection to the Dark Side to any skill, will, or health test, as long as your purpose is Fear, Anger, or Self-Gratification- any use of Force skills based on such motives REQUIRES drawing on the Dark Side. If the test fails, your Dark Side advances by the margin of failure.
You Will Know When You Are Calm: Once per session, while At Peace, you may draw on the Force without spending a Persona point. This can be done at any time, including during the GM’s Turn, and does not require expenditure of checks.
Give In To Your Hatred: Being Stressed or Injured subtracts a die from all Force rolls, but adds a bonus die to all Dark Side rolls. Being Distraught subtracts -1s from all Force rolls, but adds +1s to all Dark Side rolls- these effects are cumulative.
It Is Your Destiny: Once per session, the GM may call upon you to roll your Will against your Dark Side when presented with an opportunity to pursue a Belief, Goal, or Instinct in a way that shows Fear, Anger, or Self-Gratification. If your Dark Side prevails, you MUST follow through. If you resist, you may reduce your Dark Side connection by 1. You can also succumb voluntarily.[/i]
The effect I’d intend here is that the Dark Side is deliberately much easier to access than the standard Force, but it risks turning your character into a puppet of their own desires. I think this is similar to the Greed/Steel conflict mentioned earlier. How does that sound?
Love the idea that certain conditions can make it easier to tap into the Dark Side. I may have to, um, err, ah, borrow that.
The separate Light/Dark Side thing is something I keep tossing around in my head. Fundamentally, that’s a better way, but it also may be needlessly complicating. One-way advancement of Emotional traits is kind of a different thing, and might be better covered in the context of a Burning Wheel game rather than Mouse Guard.
For my tastes, I didn’t even like Control/Sense/Alter as the trinity of Force skills. Of course, I’m breaking out Fighter & Pilot, and dividing terrestrial from space gaming in terms of skills, so meh. Various d20 incarnations do things in various ways for the Force abilities, and I’m not sure I like any of it. If the game is about Jedi & the Force, then more skills & more tests for those skills make sense… as long as a skill has a test on the game end of it.
Defense as Jedi Nature… I was thinking that way, too, but Mouse Nature is more limiting. Hiding/Escaping is not the same as the more generally useful Defending aspect, so running Nature as the Defend skill in Fight isn’t as punitive as it could/should be if Defending is a valid aspect. Depends on where you want the drama to be. In a Jedi game, as I’m envisioning, I think the drama should be about the Fall & not just persistent ass-kicking (although ass-kicking is an integral part of the universe).
Bottom line: if you run a dedicated Jedi game, then I think Nature & drawing on Nature works fine for the Force. The rest can be “Say Yes”, covered in the general player-driven descriptions of contests, and so on. Levitating an apple across the room to your sweetheart shouldn’t require a check. Crazy stunting in Fight doesn’t need a separate skill to muddy the core Fight abilities, IMO. Jedi Chase/pursuit can be leaping huge distances without running a separate line of Jedi skills… and I still have some 32 revamped skills in my skill list even after removing things like Apiarist.
Anyway, those are my opinions at my stage in the writing of a hack.
I still think about The Force as One Skill only. No more. No less.
That’s why I like the two separates Nature aspects thing. It’s good because no every Jedi must fall. If you are stronge enough you can resist the Dark Side of The Force. It is your will that must be broken. It is the GM job to tempt you and corrupt you. It is not easy to be a selfless Jedi.
What do you think of the notion of using the Force to enhance wises/circles/resources tests? I thought that made a certain amount of sense, given it’s premonition/suggestion aspects.
Crap. I just edited out my entire post. Cliff notes version:
The problem I see with having a single general-purpose Force/Nature mechanic is that (A) it’s hard to give it individual flavour, and (B) if it really is that general-purpose, and not subject to Tax, it’s going to get used very frequently, and will advance way too fast. You were (justifiably) worried that having the Defence descriptor is too convenient for the players, but this seems a lot more prone to exploitation from my POV. (And, as you suggested, having over 30 skills for stuff that’s basically peripheral to the stories and none for the Force seems… odd.)
I agree that use of the Force should be largely improvisational, but it’s simple enough to imagine a multitude of uses for, e.g, telekinesis, so there’s no reason why it should inherently complicate the basic conflict mechanics. You want to bat your enemy around the head with a levitated 2x4? That’s an attack. You want to jump onto a moving platform to get some distance? That’s a maneuver.
I’m glad you liked the conditions mechanic. What do you think of using the Force to augment resources/circles/wises? I thought it made sense, given it’s suggestion/premonition facets.
FWIW, my own skill list ran as follows:
Duelist, Marksman, Evasion, Militarist, Saboteur
Deceiver, Persuader, Orator, Haggler, Introspect
Administrator, Political History, Apparel, Domestics
Archivist, Medical, Instructor, Cybernetics, Mechanic, Pilot
Sand Runner, Ice Runner, Forest Runner, Cultivation
It all depends on where you see the Fall. Is it in the bigger plot elements that the GM conspires with you to bring about? Or is it the thousand cuts that you inflict on yourself before the GM throws salt onto your wounds?
There’s valid storytelling in both, so I can’t say until it works out in a game.
This isn’t really a question of emotional conflict or Falling per se (though that’s obviously tied up with the Force.) My point is, if the Force is general-purpose in tactical terms, it’s going to get used very frequently, and will advance- as a skill- too fast. Mouse Nature doesn’t get abused that way because of the Tax mechanics and because it’s safe tactical uses are very circumscribed- you can only use it in certain ways, in certain conflicts. What equivalent limitation is there here?
Personally, I think that’s a feature, not a bug. Secondly, it means if a player wants to lower his Dark Side Nature, 