I really think that Jedi Nature needs to be divorced from actual skills. Odie has the right of it: let Jedi Nature be more ephemeral and in doing so it becomes something for the Jedi to fight against.
I’m saying Jedi Nature is more like the ideal Jedi Nature (as espoused by the Council). The one Jedi are supposed to live up to, the one Yoda was schoolin’ young Skywalker about. “How am I to know the good side from the bad?” “You will know when you are calm, at peace, passive.” But how can you be passive in a fight?
(This works extra well, if you ask me, since “a Jedi uses the Force for knowledge and defense, never for attack.” Nature works perfectly in a fight conflict for Defend!)
I think the core conflict is preserved because the Jedi are always doing stuff which requires them to not be passive or at peace. But I’m not an expert MG hacker.
-B
I don’t mean to suggest I’m an expert simply by virtue of having written a hack, but I’m certainly familiar with the pitfalls of working one over the coals.
You can’t really argue that a Jedi who is fighting is not being a Jedi. They were “defenders of peace and justice in the galaxy.” I guarantee you (and we all know) that they didn’t do that by meditating in an ivory tower. Remember… Yoda wasn’t talking about Jedi. He was talking about the Force. A Jedi doesn’t crave adventure and excitement… but they don’t run away from it, either. It was their duty to embrace such things and risk danger for the good of the Republic. (There was actually a good season 1 Clone Wars CGI two-parter about pacifism and conflict/war and peace.)
Again, it’s my opinion that there’s not really a good Nature to be found here, except to create something new using the Dark Side temptations idea, which I really like.
This may be sound odd, but well. Here we goes.
How about a dual Nature? Dark and Light. If one goes up, the other goes down. With a limit of 0/7, when Light is four, Dark is three, for example, and vice versa.
A jedi can choose which Nature he want to test. Of course, if he test Light against her aspects, then he is risking to loose a bit. (Or maybe a lot.) But, if he prefer to test his dark side, he is gaining a test for advancement for that Nature.
The Light Side aspects can be: patience, peace, meditation, harmony.
The Dark Side can be: fear, angry, hate, cause suffering.
I prefer that way too. I like samurai. 
And, what about spaceships? Perhaps should be treated as characters, with their own stats, or as gear, with bonuses and penalties?
Yeah, I was thinking of something similar (a sliding scale) but the issue is that you end up with Vincent Baker’s In A Wicked Age. In other words, everything you do will either be done patiently, peacefully, meditatively, harmoniously, fearfully, angrily, hatefully or … well, suffering doesn’t have an adverb, but yeah. 
You’d simply use Nature for all tasks, since one could argue that his character was acting within one of those 8 descriptors (and the player would balance them, so as to keep Nature at, say, 4 perpetually).
But balance is what the jedi seeks. Why not? But then you not improve your skills.
On the surface of it, I don’t like the sliding scale either.
I think it is a modern view to see things in shades of grey rather than the clarity of black & white. Jedi used to be more black & white, but some want them to be in-between.
Not that there isn’t a time for the Dark path, but I think it should be clear. Choose the Dark path, and Fall from grace.
Thinking about it, I believe there should be no slider IMO. It implies a kind of choice that I think should be outside the scope of a Mouse Guard or Jedi game. If there’s a choice, there needs to be a consequence.
Sliding scales muddy up the concept of consequence.
On the player character side, I’d look at them as gear. Delta-7 Aethersprite interceptors, Venator-class Star Destroyers, Acclamator assault ships… all behave like gear for character-driven conflicts.
On the GM/opposition side, I was considering them like Animals. So, Vulture droids would have a “Nature” rating, with some descriptors. Droid Tri Fighters would have similar approaches. Same with Banking Clan frigates & so on.
Now, Banking Clan frigates and Trade Federation battleships would be further up the scale, as mentioned about Mouse Guard’s Natural Order scale. You’d need a lot of fighters to blow up a Lucrehulk-class battleship.
(To recap, we’d adapt the Natural Order concept for space combat, especially the big Militarist-type battles)
Exactly again!!
Those three Jedi tenants are perfect! They could easily be the descriptors for Jedi Nature (replacing the mouse ones). Look at MG: they fight all the time, so do Jedi, but it is against both of their core Natures. Looks like a perfect fit to me!
I’d go so far as to say one could keep using Nature for Defend and such as well as you suggested Odie. Why not?
Honestly, the Mouse Guard seem pretty darn Jedi to me anyway. Just like the Realm Guard do.
Precisely! The Mouse Guard are defenders of peace and justice in the Mouse Territories, too – but their job is against mouse Nature. It is not the way of the Jedi to fight. It is the way of the Jedi to live quietly and meditatively. But they can’t, because they have to defend the galaxy. It is not the way of a guardmouse to fight. It is their way to hide, escape, etc. But their duty, their job, is at odds with their nature.
I don’t know nothin’ 'bout no Clone Wars or prequels. The only Jedi I know are Luke Skywalker, Yoda, and Ben Kenobi.
-B
Alright, I’m down with that, Brodie and Irminsul. Now comes the bitch-goddess task of deciding upon 4 descriptors.
Jedi things, with Nature as a stumbling block. Hmmm. It’s hard to boil down to single words or short descriptors, especially since everything BW is about getting people to act. Writing anti-active Nature descriptors just seems wrong somehow 
Cunctator (i.e. Fabius Maximus… also Cunctator, the delayer… meaning an extreme amount of caution & thought prior to action)?
Some kind of Rinzai Zen non-attachment thingy… but extreme.
Crazy lack of emotions.
Man, that’s tough. Just saying “Non-emotional” or “Delayer” is kind of too tame, I think. Or maybe I’m just fatigued…
Okay… temporarily putting off the discussion on Jedi Nature hacks, getting back to Recruitment & the skill list. d6 Star Wars & d20 Star Wars (looking at the RCR & Saga Editions) are kind of useless to help since the basis for skills & tests is so different in those systems.
Does the hack need a Jurist or Lawyer skill? (Probably fits better in BSG)
Demolitions… should Scout become Guerilla? Saboteur? I hate losing a d20 Star Wars class name, but Guerillas might be cool. Or does blowing up stuff fall under Scoundrel?
Scavenger? Transforming junk into useable tech? Kind of a MacGyver-style production skill?
Has anyone ever gotten to the max number of skills? It’s hard to comb through Star Wars lore in order to come up with other skills to put on the list, especially online. Wow, there’s a lot of bullshit for Star Wars.
For skills, write down every single one in MG. Then put a —> beside each and write the name for the Star Wars skill equivalent. Keep it the same if it’s the same. For instance, Harvester might translate directly to Harvester… but it also split out into Jury-Rigger or Scavenger. (I like Scavenger for the overall sense of what it is but kinda like Jury-Rigger due to the Star Warsy feel.) Pathfinder becomes Navigator (space and land). Etc.
The thing is to recognize what the existing skills encompass and not overlap too too much. For instance, Guerilla would fall under Survivalist, I’d say. Remember intent here. For example, you don’t need a Politician skill because a politician’s main weapons are to act as Orators, Deceivers and Persuaders.
You might find you end up with a lot fewer crafting skills but expand into technical ones (like you’ve already indicated). I like the Artisan idea to encompass crafted wares. Boom. Done. For technical skills, let’s really see what’s needed and what comes up in movie canon:
Jury-rigging constantly. Need something like that, but could be under the rubric of Survivalist… maybe? Scavenging for sure, but should be part of Survivalist. You have Engineer. Programmer could work for sure (yeah, I changed my mind), but I’d use it in place of Droidsmith. After all, Loremouse works for various animals – let Programmer work across various machines. … yeah, technical skills will be a bitch. Do those last, after converting all the others so you have a solid base and don’t feel like you’re smashing your head against a wall.
Holy shit. Just had an idea. Instead of Weather Watcher becoming Battle Meditation, what about just Meditation? Imagine other uses besides Maneuver and Feint in Space Combat! You can Meditate in the Players’ Turn to forecast a twist or hazard in the next game! So instead of forecasting the weather, you actually affect something the GM can bring into play.
So if your hazards are: Sith, Space, Denizens and Technology, you could do a Meditation and be told (or to create? Hmmm…) what a hazard or twist in the next game will be and its very general nature. GM: “You see a forest planet… leaves swirling in a firestorm… a dark shape stands still and you hear a single female cry out…” How fucking cool would that be?
Okay, enough of my early morning ramblings.
As I rambled on before, I think the challenge with the MG skill list is that it’s so pre-industrial & pre-modern.
Droids/automation provide most of that productive capacity in the era, so a pre-industrial skill basis won’t feel right to me. Some concepts are okay… Like Smith mapping over to Engineer, but even that is a soft linkage. Carpenter, Stonemason, Apiarist, Brewer - there is no good reason to bring many of them over, even Brewer. Most of it has to be scrapped instead of mapped IMO.
And these are the prominent skills in pre-MG & apprenticeship experience during Recruitment. (Err, Youngling/Initiate Training rather than apprenticeship.)
This is why I tried to look at it from a modern, post-industrial, American perspective. It’s why I listed Dancer and Musician as separate, originally. Ditto to preserving Programming on its own, and separate from physical things. It’s more modern & service-oriented. I see Scavenger, as a post-production skill, being more likely to fit the futuristic setting than a primary production ability like Stonemason.
See, why didn’t Baker and Cook get bound together in Mouse Guard? Smith, Stonemason, Carpenter, Potter… I can see why they are separate, but they could also be various Builder concepts in another manner of seeing things. Simplicity is good, but in a service-oriented skill list, I would still push back against making productive skills separate/specialized & making service skills bundled/generalized.
I don’t mind bundling Engineer and Programmer and Droidsmith, but a mechanical engineering guy is different from the EE or compsci guy today. Also, Droids are the significant opponent in the Clone Wars era, and I see them more like the Animals of Mouse Guard (hence Droidsmith rather than outright Programming).
Hazards… Droids (as the #1 foe in the era), Sith, Space (the journey obstacles based on hyperspace navigation, which includes hostile fauna)… And Technology seems like a brilliant idea for an obstacle since it’s always getting FUBARed in the movies.
What if Droid/Sith gets combined into the Separatists, with non-aligned worlds being some other idea (Diplomatic obstacle/hazard)?
Battle Meditation is supposed to address Separatists hazards… but Meditation as a Precog/inform-the-GM method can work.
Informing the GM through skill use is a great aspect of the BW system. I just think there needs to be some specialization since it is so powerful. Weather Watcher doesn’t tell you what animal comes next in the story, though maybe Hunter or Loremouse could. Pathfinder and Cartographer are also not Weather Watcher.
Battle Meditation for Separatist hazards. Navigator & some Jedi precognition for Space hazards? Engineer or Programmer for Tech hazards? Something Jedi for landing on a potentially hostile non-aligned world.
Anyway, that’s my pushback/disagreeable morning mood for you.
A quick word: I wouldn’t use Droids specifically. I used Denizens to account for other things: Sandpeople, rancors, krayt dragons, droids, corrupt politicians, local security forces, etc.
Hmmm… then again, maybe Droids, Denizens, Sith and Technology. My thoughts behind Space were actually mostly technology issues: hyperspace astrogation, run-ins with whatever fleets/ships, etc. Again, though, those all fall under Technology, really. That said… I’m not a huge fan of Droids and Denizens. Seems like an unnecessary separation. After all, while you might be focusing on Clones Wars era, why not make it open enough for the hack to be played without era restriction?
Era restrictions are pretty standard in Star Wars gaming, partly due to the movies & various “EU” content (especially the Knights of the Old Republic game). I think the skills and Recruitment can translate between eras really easily…
So why not handle it like Star Wars RPG Saga Edition & the prior d20 RPG?
Separate eras have separate themes and obstacles.
So, a Clone Wars era would natually have something like:
Separatists, Space, Technology, Diplomacy
The Mandalorean Wars (Knights of the Old Republic) might be:
Mandaloreans, Space, Tech, Jedi Council
And each era has a different set of Hazard sources. Defining those shouldn’t be hard if you approach most things like Animals are treated in Mouse Guard. Even the spaceships & technology.
Nicely said. I’m down with that!
My suggestion at this point would be to split out into new threads discussions on, specifically, Skills and Nature (if you want to delve into Nature at this point). Separate threads will allow for better focused discussion and easier reference later when you start compiling/editing.
Separate eras probably also have different “conflict seasons,” wouldn’t you say?
-B
I don’t think seasons will matter since weather’s not a hazard. You could just say that one year is five games with the fifth game being the “winter” or reorg session.
Good point.
The Clone Wars were very different than what Malak & Revan did in the Mandalorean Wars…
I did have a thought about the Joseph Campbell stuff, but it might be out of place given the change of direction in all the movies & tv shows & whatnot.
(we are talking about Hacking the Seasons concept. Not in terms of literal Seasons, but phase-based concepts like Burning Sands or the Infection mechanics in Burning Empires.
Seasons is a similar concept, and IMO, it would be a shame to lose it. I love how Seasons inform the style of the game & help mark the passage of time)
I would not get too excited about that.
Star Wars is not futuristic. It is Sci Fi in drag. It is Jungian archetype crossed with Wagnerian style opera. That kind of interplay takes up all of the oxygen in what is going on. The science gizmos operate on the same level as magic items in DnD. Technology is not pushing people outside of the normal human passions that drive the plot. Therefore it is not science fiction. I am sure that this has been said before. It has more to do with “Snow Drop and the Seven Little Men” than it does with “Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep”
The nature and interplay between Light and Dark are a lot more central to what Star Wars is than post industrial skills.