The GM and Helping Dice via NPC's

I posted this earlier but I think it got lost in the form wonkieness that happened a couple weeks ago.

Ok, according to P. 302: “Only one skill per player may be used to help in a tests.”

The main thing I want clarification on is this: The GM counts as only one player too, right?

In my game, there are 3 PC’s and 1 GM. So that means, at most, regardless of the # of relationships, contacts, Stentors, 2iC, or whatever else is out there (and there are many!) the total # of helping dice a player can expect is 4 (1 from a 2iC if he has one, 2 from the other two PC’s, and then 1 from an NPC of the GM’s choice)

Can the Players have say in which of their relationships the GM uses to offer help?

The short answer is Yes.

The long answer is: a PC is allowed to get help from the other PCs and an NPC that they control (so circles or 2ic or kerrn/stentor). The GM is also allowed to help, but it’s unlikely that he will unless it’s for something that will screw another player. So in a 4 player (3 PC, 1 GM) game, the most you can expect are four helping dice. The PC in question is allowed to say which NPC they control is helping, they are not able to dictate which NPC the GM uses (if the GM choses to help that is).

If the GM is helping a GM character, that character can, at best expect 1 helping die unless the GM cons some of the PCs into helping as well. If the GM wasn’t limited by this rule as well it would be totally crazy broken because you’d see die pools of 15+ being regularly thrown by the GM.

a PC is allowed to get help from the other PCs and an NPC that they control (so circles or 2ic or kerrn/stentor).

Ok, according to this other thread since the GM runs ALL NPC’s that are not “subordinates” it seems like in that case the GM will be giving out help dice for practically every roll, because of the hoards of fanatically loyal relationship characters the PC’s have Circles’d in. Not just “when it was going to screw another Player.” Among all those Relationships, at least ONE is prolly going to be willing/able to help, right?

Forged/Anvil/Hammer Lords and their hordes o’ no-Circles-required dudes are a little problematic. In our games, we usually allow one guy to help. I mean, otherwise, whole cruisersfull of help, right? That’s no good.

Those are all considered to be owned by the player in question since they are their relationships. Mostly it has to do with the nature of the social contract of Burning Wheel helping dice: you can’t circle someone up in order to force the GM to hand you a helping die, you are circling someone up so you can get more help. If the GM wishes to freely give you a helping die that is ok, but for the purposes of help anything that you create mechanically (so circles or spending points) belongs to you.

I’m writing a reply to your other thing in the other thread for a better explanation of the issue of who owns what and why.

The rule is intended to limit help to and from the players more than the GM. It’s to stop the “my 2iC helps” madness – in which each player hands over four dice for each test.

Well shit, in that case my Anvil Lord is going to start getting tons of helping dice from all his minor functionaries and my Power Mad Psychologist will get helping dice from all the people on the council that he’s paid off and/or brainwashed!

j/k

Power Mad Psychologist will get helping dice from all the people on the council that he’s paid off and/or brainwashed!

Haha, that’s pretty much exactly what happened in my game. I hulled the Grand Inquisitor and gave him some nano-tech that gave +4 Ob to Psychology tests against him (and also made any Psychologist still SEEM like they had the Bright Mark).

he walked into the Psychologist’s office, the player made a psychology test to detect the worm, and with all his retinue providing help, made the Ob 7 test. :frowning:

The rule is intended to limit help to and from the players more than the GM.

Ok, that makes sense, but where does that leave the GM? For example, If I have 1 GMFON performing a building roll, can I have the other two GMFON help? What about their subordinates? Where do I draw the line on how many NPC’s I can draw on for helping dice?

Consider each GMFON (and thus everyone under them) a player.

Welly welly welly welly well… that needs to get in the errata.

EDIT: Errata-ed!

::shrug::
Among other things.

Well, we’ve been doing it wrong in our game which is why I noticed it. All updated now.

Ok, cool. Now, I’ve lost one of my GMFON but have circles’d in a new dude. Would he count as a FON too for these purposes, or is he a relationship to my GMFON who circles’d him in?

Basically, if I lose a GMFON, am I out 1 helping die for the rest of the game?

In order: No, Yes, Yes

You can’t create figures of note once play starts. You can bring in new important characters but they lack that little something to make them noteworthy. Technically he’d be a relationship to the GMFON who did the circling though there is nothing stopping you from having him be a very active player, he just isn’t able to add dispo at the start of a phase or count as another player for purposes of helping dice.

i’d let your dead GMFoN help your other GMFoNs if it fits the fiction. the dead GM FoN still counts as a player, dead or not, so his subordinate is still under the umbrella of that player. it won’t be fun for your PC opposition if things get that easy for them. the intent of the rule is to minimize the number of help dice from each PC.

the way i usually play it, for example, in a versus test, for every PC asked for help (whether they give it or not), the GM gets to offer help from one of his GM NPCs, figure of note, subordinate, 2iC, etc. as long as it fits the fiction. otherwise the players would always have an advantage and it wouldn’t be much of a game. 3 PCs helping the prime in a building roll, 3 NPCs helping the opposition. fair and square. keep things even when possible.