Two Fight Questions

  1. I scripted a Feint, and my opponent scripts a Counterstrike. Does my opponent still get to roll for his strike portion of his Counterstrike (referring to the Strike action table) or does he get no action via the “-” as listed in his interaction with Feint on the Counterstrike table? Sorry if this one is obvious.

  2. In two-fisted weapon fighting there is no penalty for striking with a weapon in the off hand. What is the penalty for striking with a weapon in the off hand without the training?

  1. Pretty sure your opponent gets no action. If I recall correctly, the ‘strike’ part of Counterstrike only happens if the ‘counter’ part happens first, and it doesn’t work against Feints. This is different from Block and Strike, where both parts happen regardless(though there may be nothing to block).

  2. I don’t know the answer to this one, but I’m very eager to find out what it is.

The penalty is you can’t.

You can’t? I dunno, that doesn’t seem in the spirit of BW to me. I would say a double obstacle penalty (basically fighting as unskilled) would be fair for the off-hand roll. That is, if the book doesn’t explicitly state otherwise.

  1. is either irrelevant because your character will always take his best shot or a situational disadvantage assessed by the GM at the time.

Honestly, I don’t think I’ve ever seen handedness come up as an issue in our games.

Thought I might give my POV, as I am the ‘opponent’ aka other player.

Feint basically works against defensive maneuvers, because you misread the intention of your enemy and thereby mess up your defensive timing. Funny thing is, Feint does not work against Avoid (Dash Interaction) and Avoid not against Feint. Feint works against Block, Block not against Feint. Block&Strike has no table and is not mentioned in the Feint table, but logic would dictate that while you can’t do anything against the incoming attack, you still can deliver the Strike portion of your action. Same would apply for Counterstrike, basically an Avoid&Strike move as I see it. Both actions have to divide the pool between offense and defense, thereby being already penalized, and both explicitly state that the attack portion is handled as a Strike (which works against Feint). On the other hand, the ‘Against No Action’ and Assess tables states that no action is to be taken with Avoid/Block/Counterstrike/Feint should your opponent have no action/assess.
More feedback how people played that in the past would be interesting.

As far as the fighting with two weapons goes, I couldn’t find anything conclusive in the BWG book. Neither the Fight! nor the Weapons chapters seem to have any information on it. The skill description for Two-Fisted Weapon Training just says that with the skill there will be no penalties (of unknown nature) and that one can actually Block&Strike with two weapons. As I am thinking about aiming for a character who will ultimately use two weapons, probably elven falchions, and it interested me since I read about the Sword Singers, it might be good to know. For example, if the penalty would be that you might use two weapons (=< long), but apart from dividing your weapon skill dice you would have double obstacle penalty, then it would become just not viable and one would be better off to go and practice for a few months or get instructions for a couple of weeks.

The two fisted fighting skill does say that it allows you to strike with a weapon in your off hand effectually, which implies that without it you would be ineffectual. I don’t remember if beginners luck rolls are allowed with training skills, but that might be an option.

BWG pp51: You can’t use Beginner’s Luck to open a Training skill, tests can only be earned via Instruction or Practice.


So I’m back to you can’t fight with two weapons unless you have opened the skill.

On a positive note, it can lead to a nice belief about finding a sensei.

Re applying a situational penalty, as per Luke’s reply, would that not run counter to the Beginner’s Luck rules? Simply adding a +xOb penalty would make it easier to use the untrained skill, even if it doesn’t count as reducing Aptitude, than learning a non-restricted skill with its double Ob penalty.


Except for the person who insists on picking up two swords regardless of training and tries to hit someone with both of them at the same time. Saying you just can’t doesn’t really solve it, I’m afraid.

I agree with you John, but my feeling at this point is to penalize an untrained two-fisted fighter (if they foolishly decided to pick up two swords and use them together) using beginner’s luck rules as a schematic (outside of the fact that you can’t open a training skill with beginner’s luck).

Sure it does. You can pick up two swords, but you only get to test for one of em.

It’s ineffectual, meaning it has no effect.

That said, applying a double ob penalty has its appeal.

So you apply the double Ob penalty for not knowing the skill (as per Beginner’s Luck), but it doesn’t count towards learning the skill? Nice and elegant and within the spirit of the rules, I’d argue. I presume you’d still earn the advancement logs for the stat being used if the test were Difficult or Challenging? You just don’t gain the benefit of being able to learn from the routine test.

I would say that using two weapons at the same time, in true dual-wield fashion, should be penalized while still being possible. One could handle it like Beginner’s Luck, with the double obstacle rule, while splitting the weapon dice evenly between the two weapons, or in case of two different weapons half the weapon skill dice. Therefore a ‘master’ fighter with say B8 would have 2x B4 against at least Ob2 for Strike plus any disadvantage +Ob for weapon length and positioning, making it hard but not impossible. And even when he actually hits, it will just be an incidental strike anyway, but then again twice.
No chance to use the Block&Strike action, as this would need a kind of coordination that is only learned with the proper Training Skill. And no tests towards Aptitude of the Training Skill, as this is explicitly stated in the rules.
BUT, it might be an interesting way to get difficult and challenging tests towards the weapon skill.

At least that way the GM offers a possible if challenging way for the player and has not resort to a simple and discouraging ‘No. Why? Because there is no regulation in The Book™ covering it.’ :wink:

As far as my reading goes, TFT allows the Block and Strike action, as well as the Strike and Strike action (striking with both simultaneously). Otherwise, if folk want to use a weapon in one hand, and then a weapon in another hand between individual strikes, I don’t see there being a problem. TFT just means you’re good enough to swing with both, in the same way that shield training means you’re good enough to effectively block with a shield while striking if’n you want.

I would respond with “cool! Roll to strike with one of them, +1 ob for being uncoordinated 'cause you’re swinging two swords and only able to focus on one,(and if I was feeling nice) +1d because it’s hard for buddy to tell which one you’re really going to hit him with.” Net negative, with the possibility of evening out. The swordfighter in question is actually unable to swing them both effectively. If they weren’t even teh same weapon, say a mace and a sword, I’d give a +2ob penalty, since the two weapons work different.

ANything else just gets complicated.

The real drawback to using two weapons without the Two-Fisted Fighting Training skill is you don’t have access to Block & Strike.

OK, so the results so far are…

  1. Counterstrike gets no action against Feint.
    That is because…? CS is Parry&Strike / Riposte?

  2. Without TFFT there is no simultanous using of weapons, and of course no Block&Strike?
    The latter being explicitly mentioned various times in BWG, and unquestioned.

Feint is an action specifically designed to defeat Block and Counterstrike. If you look at the table on page 444 under Counterstrike, you will see that Counterstrike gets no action against Feint.

Sure you can. You have two weapons readied, you position with one of them, you must use the one you positioned with but may also use the other if you have additional Strikes scripted. You may not Block & Strike. You may not Great Strike with either. I’d assign +1Ob if your off-hand weapon is big, but the idea of someone fighting with an axe and a dagger so they have something to use on the inside in case of unfriendly hugs doesn’t seem to require two-fisted fighting.