Two Fisted Fighter Training

Could a character with this training skill use it to throw two daggers in fight the same way that they could attack/fight with two weapons? (Split there skill between the two attacks) This wouldn’t be quite as good as having a grey reflex but it would be pretty close. Especially at higher skill levels.

No. Because it’s not the intent, and for exactly the reason you point out.

Note the text of the training explicitly mentions the Strike action. Throwing daggers (or anything else) is not a Strike action.

So the dirksman can’t throw two daggers at one target by means of this training skill. He’ll just have to be content with being a human vegamatic.
Thanks Guys

What about using Two Fisted Fighter Training with a Staff? (Shortening weapon length) My first instinct would be to say yes as far as block/strike and strike/strike are concerned, but the Staff is a Two Handed Weapon and the Training Skill calls for using two one handed weapons. You can use it with two batons (clubs) as they are not connected and each hand can move on its on while the staff is connected and cannot move independently end to end.
How would you rule on this?

The real advantage to Two-Fisted Fighting Training is being able to operate at two different weapon lengths (frex. short and long) with no disadvantage at either while using the Block & Strike action. The special double-strike action that it enables is suboptimal in most cases.

If you have enough dice to actually hit with paired attacks it’s really good for forcing more armor tests and wearing down armor. If you have such an overwhelmingly high skill that you can land killing blows with both hands at once, sure, go for it, but otherwise it’s usually better to focus on one solid hit rather than two minimal ones.

No, you can’t use TFFT with a staff. It is very obviously for using two weapons. One staff is not two weapons.

And that was my reservation on it, but the further insight into the skill was great too.
Thanks Guys!

Hey guys, I was sent here from the subreddit r/burningwheel, I’ve been having trouble understanding this skill’s mechanics in BWG Fight! Can the fighter strike with both weapons in a single action? If so can they also Block with both? If a character had G3 in knife, do they roll G3 for both hands (essentially G6)? I thought I had this stuff down until the players started asking, now I’m totally confused.

I don’t have my book handy, so I’m going off memory here.

  1. You can make two attacks with a single Strike action. If you do this, you divide your dice (e.g. G3) into two pools, one for each attack. So you might make roll 1 die for the left hand and two dice for the right. (Now I can’t recall what, if anything, you do if the two weapons use different skills. My inclination would probably be to average the skills and round down.) Note that the weapons have to be the same length; no striking with sword and dagger at the same time.

You’ll also quickly find that unless you have very high skill you’re going to be making two wimpy attacks. As I’ve said, it can be useful, but it’s very niche, and that niche is almost never inflicting more wounds.

  1. You can make a single attack with either hand at no penalty. This is actually a much better tactic. If you have a knife in one hand and sword in the other, you can fight effectively at two different distances.

  2. You can use Block and Strike as if you had Shield Training. It works exactly the same way: pick a skill you’re using to block, and divide the dice between the Strike and the Block. You get +1D to the Block half for having an effective parrying blade.

There aren’t rules for Blocking with both hands. There are a couple of good reasons for that. One is that attacks depend on weapons’ relative advantages, and that’s something BW can’t calculate for two weapons of different lengths. That’s also why you can only double-strike with weapons of equal length! The other is that because TFFT splits dice pools you’d just want to block with whichever skill and weapon is better anyway.

So would the Block and Strike action work when using the Martial Arts skill? (Or are you just getting your opponent an advantage to hit your “blocking weapon” aka arm).

So that’s interesting. So this training skill is really only useful for reducing penalties for off hand attacks? The double strike seems pretty pointless if you divide dice. Counterstrike is replaced by Block & Strike. Blocking is no better than without the skill. You lose access to Great Strike, push, lock, charge/tackle if you are fighting with two weapons. Am I missing something, or is this skill only mildly useful?

I believe Martial Arts is just a catch all skill that is the same as the Boxing Skill, so Block and Strike is not applicable. In my games, however I allow my players with that skill to uses kicks as well at the “short” weapon length.

You could allow Two-Fisted Fighting with two literal fists, either with Brawling or with Boxing/Martial Arts. I’m not sure that’s intended but I don’t think it’s a problem.

Double strike is usually pretty pointless. Block and Strike is a lot more reliable than Counterstrike—you always get the Strike off even if you don’t Block—but isn’t strictly better; Feint will still get through B&S, but not Counterstrike. Blocking is usually better with a shield, but Two-Fisted Blocking is better than a Block with just one blade in one hand (by 1D!) and you can’t suffer penalties for a broken shield. You lose access to Great Strike with a one-handed weapon or if you have a shield strapped on; it’s hardly a unique problem. There is a choice of whether you want a free hand or some more use out of the extra hand. And you’re missing the fact that having a sword and a knife lets you fight well at a distance and then go stabby up close. It’s a pretty serious positioning advantage if you make the most of it.

I would absolutely not give martial arts a Short weapon. Too strong, and it really changes the dynamics of fighting unarmed. That’s more in the realms of an expensive die trait.

Back two Two-Fisted Fighting: the way I understand Block & Strike if fighting with sword and dagger, is that one item acts purely as a parrying blade, and the other as the striking weapon, and this maneuver only uses the weapon skill, (and length in terms of position).

As an example at sword length fighting distance against another swordsman. The two hander Block & Strike action: blocks with the sword (B4 Sword skill) Strike with dagger (G3 Knife). He rolls the full G3 for strike, leaves the lone parrying blade 1D for Block. (possible? Does the knife get disadvantage for distance?)

If he blocks with dagger and strikes with sword, the knife does not get a penalty, because the knife skill is not being used?

If he scripted Counterstrike, he would be forced to divide the skill dice and receive no dice from parrying blade. So why ever script Counterstrike? They seem to work the same, except Block & Strike is an attack and Counterstrike is a Defense when it comes to your opponent’s Obstacles, though functionally it appears Block & Strike is actually a better defensive choice. Am I completely misunderstanding? Or is this correct?

In Burning Wheel Gold, whether your at a disadvantage is figured out during vying for position at the top of the exchange, or Engagement if it’s the beginning of the fight. So, first you’d consult your positioning tables to see if you have an advantage or disadvantage. But yes, If he attacks with the knife he’d be at a disadvantage during positioning. He can still gain the advantage and have advantage dice during the action.

You would pool all of the dice and then divide them between attack and defense. I believe you have to put at least 1 in Block, but the rest can be used to attack.

Block & Strike v. Counterstrike. Well, you have to have Shield Training or Two-Fisted training to use Block and strike. Also, the Strike portion of Counterstrike ignores disadvantages from positioning, which is the opposite of how Block & Strike works.

Also if your weapon skill is high enough, your double strike action can cause armor tests that wear down your opponents defenses (double the tests, double the opportunity of failure) not onky that, but if you can score two hits through the armor even superficial wounds start to take their toll.
(A Two Fisted Fighter with Deadly Percision on his B6 Martial Arts is a scary thing indeed)

That’s just it you don’t have to put any dice into the Block portion of Block & Strike. But I do see what you mean about Counterstrike ignoring disadvantage for position, I just totally forgot about that.

Here’s another question, Can the duel wielding swordsman use Charge/tackle? It doesn’t specifically say you must have a hand free, it only says it goes off at Hand length.

You have to assign at least one point to the Block half because otherwise it’s pretty clear that it’s not a Block and Strike, it’s just a Strike. A zero-die Block does nothing! Oh, and I went completely wrong about Counterstrike vs. Feint above; what I meant to bring up is that Block and Strike can trigger an opponent’s Counterstrike. But you’re right, a great deal of the time being able to Block and Strike is better than Counterstrike. That’s why Block and Strike requires additional training!

TFFT and Deadly Precision with B6 weapon skill is… still not all that scary. A B3 attack might make a dent, but even against no defense it’s probably an incidental. Two of those attacks are better than one, of course, but I’d still mostly rather have the single B6 and have a decent shot at putting fight-ending hurt on my foe.

Yes, you can charge with a weapon in each hand, including a weapon and a shield.

Block & Strike is an offensive action, Counterstrike is defensive. This matters a lot for stances!