War in the Future! -- Hammer Discussion

Only because it seems fair and balanced that the Navy get its own discussion. And because Counterczech and I are about to get into it at the Arena.

Some initial questions, probably regarding canon:

  • What’s the range of craft that might exist in any particular Hammer Lord’s fleet? The book only addresses the assault shuttle, the patrol craft and the cruiser. Surely there’s more than that?

  • And how big do ships get? Do they get really huge and if so, is it purely symbolic (flying palaces) or are there things you can only do with really, really big craft (i.e. Death Stars)?

  • Who handles shipboard security? The Hammer LPs don’t address boarding actions at all. You’d better hope your tactics/command skills get you through a fight, because nobody knows how to use a gun.

  • On that note, is there a “you can’t shoot guns in spaceship because you’ll vent everyone out into the Void, so we all use swords” type aesthetic going on? I didn’t see anything on that but it’d certainly fit the tall-ships-in-space vibe.

Let’s start with that and go from there.

p.

AS DESIGNED, the logic goes as follows:

  1. A Hammer fleet would have access to all of the spacegoing vessel types listed in the books: transports, yachts, shuttles, cargo shuttles, etc. Of course there would be military/specialist variants of these, but the basic templates are there for you to modify.

  2. Surprisingly small. Life support is difficult and expensive. The smaller the craft, the easier it is to maintain. Crews are small, supported by automated systems. Also, the more mass you have, the greater your fuel costs are.

  3. Discipline officers handle security. Repelling boarders is another story. That’s an attached Anvil Elite unit.

  4. I hold to canon on this one: there was a blazing Firefight in vacuum aboard a ship, therefore you can have blazing firefights aboard ships! You could make it your objective to vent the ship, I suppose.

Of course, CHRIS CAN COME AND CHANGE ALL THIS. It’s his universe, after all.

I’m away for the weekend, so I won’t be able to get back to this until Monday or Tuesday. Have fun!
-L

  1. The ships almost certainly get bigger. There is an entire scale of weaponry that wasn’t introduced in the book… Q-beams… and the hammer cruisers can’t even mount them. There would be battlecruisers, battleships, dreadnoughts, monitors, carriers of all shapes and varieties, destroyers, destroyer-escorts, corvettes, frigates, fast attack craft, fighters, light cruisers, heavy cruisers, armoured cruisers, and truely odd large ships. Our current BE campaign is onboard a casino the size of the death-star that jumps from system to system fleecing the locals of their wealth and stripping planets of their resources. And that’s assuming we decide to stay with the modern nomenclature. Given the medieval feel, Carracks, Cogs, Galliots, Ketches, Lugs, Xebecs, Sloops, Caravels, galleys, junks… you could name the ships after any of a bewildering number of sailing ship designs. The less uniform the names, the more you get the feel of the cobbled together forces hammer lords put together. Ships would also have wildly inappropriate classifications; I can just see a destitute Hammer Lord desperately claiming that his refitted Mercantor is really a dreadnought.

2 Security is something we were discussing in the other thread. Probably someone with a few lifepaths as hammer crew and as anvil.

3 They didn’t seem to have any compunctions against laser fire in Faith Conquers… nor grenades, for that matter. Ships need to be able to resist the stresses of re-entry and distortion drive travel, not to mention ship-ship weaponry… I think they’d be fairly resistant to small-arms fire. That being said, an awesome compromise for a firefight would be “You get the ship, but some idiot shot out the main compressor. It’s going nowhere without serious repairs.” That’s not to say it wouldn’t get close and personal in a ship. First thing that will happen is power starts fluctuating or the lights blow. So you’re fighting in darkness, in cramped corridors, at short range, in terrain full of cover and ambush positions. Only an idiot would fail to bring some kind of close combat weapon.

I’m digging the idea of cobbled-together navies. It seems more old-world than the assembly-line military of the modern age. I suppose the shipmaking guilds would have certain oft-repeated designs they could crank out, and then each one would inevitably get modified by the new owner.

Now…the first really operational national navies came about in, what, the 1200s or so? I’m just guessing here, thinking about Spain and Portugal being the HNICs of the seas. In a truly “dark ages” type setting, I don’t think European warlords had navies so much as collections of trade ships capable of self-defense against other trade ships, none of which were really purpose built for war. I guess you can go WAY back to the Romans and Greeks, and they had badass fast raiders, but I don’t have any sense of them doing much warfare on the water – mostly just moving their dudes from coast to coast.

I have no idea what was going on in Asian seas pre-1800s or so. Other than a steady stream of European trade ships, and probably some piracy near the shores.

I guess I could use some links to good “histories of naval warfare” type sites for inspiration.

p.

There is a long and honourable tradition of naval warfare in the Mediterranean… greco-roman naval battles could include hundreds of ships. Check out the Battle of Salamis. The army and navy were very much mutually supporting in ancient times… the army relied on the navy for supply, since overland transport was dreadfully slow and inconvenient, and the navy relied on the army for protection… most warships back then were tiny and very lightly built, and crammed as many oarsmen onboard as possible… more oarsmen=more speed aand power. And lots of power+a light, small ship means great speed and maneuverability. And great discomfort… the ships were so small and carried so few supplies that they would generally beach themselves at night. A beached trireme is an excellent target for a cavalry patrol…

Outside of the baltic, naval warfare between ships didn’t really take off until much, much later. The weather was too bad to use light galleys, and sailing technology wasn’t up to the challenge of not only allowing ships to sail in the rough water but also allow ships to FIND each other, let alone move in concert to fighting range. Then there was the problem of actually hurting your opponent. What, really could you do? Ramming was only really viable in calmish seas with specialized, oared boats. Artillery was very short ranged, inaccurate, weak, and bulky. It also needed to be mounted on the main deck… very hard to fit a ballista below decks. Archery was possible, but not really terribly effective. The only way to decicively beat your enemy was to close and board them. This was exacerbated by the fact that most warships of the time were converted merchantmen that manouvered like cows. Ships are very valuable assets, and no lord was going to waste money on a ship that was only good for fighting.

It was only in the late 1400s and early 1500s that sailing technology improved to an extent where ocean-going vessels could effectively fight each other. Cannon were also a hugely significant development. Now you could pack a ship with artillery instead of mounting 2 or 3 ballistas or trebuchets on fighting platforms (interestingly, the modern terms Forecastle or fo’c’s’le and aftercastle are derived from the practice of building towers on the forward and after portions of the ship to provide for a firing platform and to discourage boarders. Those developments also made it more difficult to simply refit merchantmen, and more dedicated warships began to appear.

Sydney, I’m sure I’ve gotten some of the dates wrong, but I think the basic evolution is correct.

Edit: THe chinese, as with most things, were far more advanced than europe at the time. They had massive fleets, and sturdy oceangoing ships. They nearly organized a circumnavigation of the world, but it fell prey to political intrigue… as I recall, the eunuchs controlled the navy, and they got purged, so their plans got scrapped.

(Cross-posted from our Pie Rats fight @ the Arena):

Played any EVE Online? Greatest PVP MMO ever conceived, unless you just want to putter around and check out the universe. Everyone’s a pirate or in an escort protecting themselves from pirates. It’s actually a fucking evil place to spend your free time in, and I can’t tolerate the stress it produces in me just trying to get from system to system. Probably I sympathize too much with the victims to be a good victimizer.

The piracy gig in EVE is that you have a) honorable pirates who threaten to gut your ship unless you hand it over, and then allow you to escape in a life raft and b) cutthroat murderers who won’t parlay and just blast the shit out of you by camping in high-value/low-security areas. The a) group can be negotiated with and are tolerated by the community, the b) group cannot be negotiated with and seems to get off on being stalked by bounty hunters.

I’m still trying to dial in how common spacecraft really are in this game. The restrictions on which PCs can have ships suggest they’re expensive on par with, say, private jets. (That’s one of my SF game gauges I use to explain macroeconomy to players: how common are starships? As common as cars? Commercial trucks? Private jets? Princess cruise ships? Aircraft carriers?)

If they’re on par with private jets, or in medieval-speak, as common as privately owned merchant vessels, I’d imagine anything worse than a tiny bit of damage done to a ship could conceivably ruin the owner’s finances. Alternately, the assumption is that if you own a ship, you’re fabulously wealthy by default because of the very ship itself (i.e. you can leverage the ship’s value for loans and such).

Or we’re back to the South Pacific Modern Pirate model, in which a trawler is just the delivery system for an asymmetrically-priced attack element (i.e. a $500 RPG that can sink a $500k ship). Conceivably, space could be crawling with trawlers.

This is where the game’s resources mechanics make everything fuzzy. It’s not clear to me that the price difference between a trawler-type in-system shuttle is really that far apart from an armed patrol craft. Well…they’re half price according to the rules (Ob8 for a shuttle, Ob16 for a patrol craft – does that price include the Artillery(1) weaponry?).

p.

Well, the RPG can’t SINK the freighter… it can just put a big unpleasant hole in it that needs to be repaired. I also think you may be overpricing your RPG, there =)

In game terms… yes, I believe the Ob16 includes the artillery. The increase in price is non-linear. The patrol craft probably costs a couple of orders of magnitude more than the shuttle. Which is as it should be, given the patrol craft has military grade sensors and artillery, is a hell of a lot tougher and faster, and has a disruption drive.

And I’ve never played EVE. Do you need to pay?

-I think range would only be limited based on fuel and the availability of supplies for a crew. A heavily automated vessel with a huge fuel reserve would probably be able to operate for a long time without need for much supplies.

-Space is vast. Compared to the sun, the earth is a grain of sand. So a starship would only be limited by the amount of resources and time used to build it. Truly monstrous vessels, multiple KM or so, are microscope in the grand scope of space.

-I would think marines or shipboard security would handle defense of the ship. Crew would probably have weapon stations near by so that they too would be able to help repel boarders.

-Unless you’re running around with a pocket howitzer, I don’t think you really have much to fear in punching a hole in a ship with an anti-infantry weapon. Considering there is no force restricting tonnage, hull armor tens of feet thick could be possible, although probably expensive and a weee bit over board.

While this is true, it actually IS possible to carry a hand howitzer =P It is called a Fuzor =) and it will breach a Hammer Cruiser’s hull 2/3 of the time.

There’s another important thing to factor into Hammer deployment lengths. They have relatively small crews, are confined, and repeatedly subject themselves to a truly harrowing experience (jumping). I could see them suffering from a high rate of psychological casualties.

My optional Hammer lifepaths Master-at-Arms and Saboteur were very much designed with the paradigm of high-tech, small-crew ships and stations, where control of computerized systems (via the Security and Security Rigging skills) can be as decisive as hand-to-hand combat. If a ship’s highly automated – to save on crew – and highly compartmentalized – to withstand battle damage – then a major tactic against mutineers or boarders might be to try to seal them off in one part of the hull, behind heavy blast doors, slowing them down while they bring up heavy equipment or drill through. (I’d imagine blazing away with a Fusor at a blast door three meters away is not a particularly safe breaching technique, especially in an enclosed compartment.) A boarding action against a military-grade ship might look like a war in an ever-changing labyrinth, with each size trying to take control of the blast doors, life support, and gravity to try to block its adversaries’ movement. I suspect that the ship boarded in Faith Conquers was a relatively easy nut to crack because it was a merchant, not a warship, and probably lacked internal compartmentalization to slow the boarder down once they’d blown the outer hull.

That came to me after I posted last night. Although I do think if you’re using a fuzor as an anti-personnel weapon, you’re one scary person.

It’s hard to talk intelligently about Hammer because we’ve seen so little of it in the comics: the only “canonical” starship vs. starship engagement is Geil’s privateer disabling the Vaylen smuggling ship in Faith Conquers, which is pretty brief and one-sided. We need more data, and there’s only one source…

Paging Chris Moeller – Chris Moeller, white courtesy phone, please.

Hello. Yes this is he. Really? Okay, I’ll take the call, just give me a moment to finish my champagne and caviar.


Excellent thread. I’m going to post a little Hammer Warfare primer I put together for myself and my proof reader. I’m writing a new IE story that concentrates entirely on Hammer issues, so this is stuff I’ve been working on a lot lately. These are notes only, not final…


Starship combat in a nutshell: there are three kinds of drives, Distortion drives (DD), Conventional drives (CTA: chemical thrust acceleration) and Grav/pressor drives (which only provide viable thrust in a gravity well). Distortion Drives are the prime movers in space combat. They operate in two modes Hyperexpansion (HEx), which is used for interstellar travel, and subluminal expansion (SEx!?), which is used for interplanetary travel. Hyperexpansion isn’t a “jump” but it might as well be in terms of space combat. A ship that engages its drives at HEx expansions will vanish from the conflict.

So D-drives operating at subluminal expansions dictate the characteristics of hammer batttles in the IE. Here are the salient points about D-drives:

DISTORTION DRIVES

  • An active D-drive creates a dimensional bubble, the boundary of which displays the characteristics of the antiverse (matter is antimatter, time travels in reverse, gravitons are pressors). The extent of the antiverse’s influence on our universe can be exaggerated or diminished by the drive generating the effect (the technobabble for this is “emergence”).

  • Result #1: Time (t) at the boundary of the distortion effect is influenced by the negative value of time in the anti-verse. In the positive universe, time has a value of 1 (t=1). In the antiverse t= -1. At the boundary of the distortion effect, the value of time changes, depending on the emergence of the effect. Let’s say time at the boundary equals 0.5 (t=0.5). If the drive creating the distortion effect is moving at 10 meters per second, the result will be a sphere of positive space, centered on the drive, moving along its original vector at 10 meters per half-second. Time “inside” the sphere and time outside the sphere continue at normal, real world values (1). But the sphere as a whole is slipping through space on a different (a distorted) clock.

  • Result #2: the influence of Gravity at the boundary is lessened. This has no appreciable effect since distortion field opens only in regions of space that have very little gravitational influence (see below).

  • Result #3: small particles of positive matter at the boundary may begin to act like anti-matter, depending on how high the emergence is. D-drives are sensitive to the presence of particles. If too much matter is present at the rim of the effect, the drive will not open or it will collapse. This is not instantaneous, and there are odd effects with quantum particles (photons). This effect is utilized by the Q-beam weapon, which dials up a brief, nearly 100% emergence over a very large area, almost always resulting in matter/antimatter events along its boundary before it collapses.

WEAPONS
These include Q-beams (primary weapons), lasers, missiles, energy weapons and artillery.

Missiles, equipped with CTA drives, utilizing either nuclear warheads, kinetic energy or some sort of submunition to deal damage to their target. Essentially useless against a ship with a functioning D-Drive.

Torpedoes, with Distortion drives of their own. These tend to be either sensors, “mines”, fire-platforms or Nails (torpedoes equipped with field suppressors designed to interfere with the target’s distortion drive, preventing it from engaging.

Lasers, Artillery and Energy Weapons (Fusors, Screws):
these are fairly limited weapons in deep space, where ships are darting around at high speed and at long range. Any time that DDU’s are unable to operate, however, they begin to come into play. They may also play a defensive role against incoming Torpedoes.

Q-beams
the true hammer weapon, relying on anti-matter annihilation for their “punch”. The biggest ships field up to 5 or 6 of these. Most Line ships carry 1-2. These are fired on vectors ahead of ships moving at distortion speed. Their range is very great, but their accuracy is limited. when they hit, they destroy.

DEFENSE

Armor:
conventional armor that has zero effect on Q-beam strikes, and varying effect on conventional weapons.

Power Grid:
Layers of energy dispersing armor combined with large heat dispersion components. These provide some defense against Q-beam near-misses.

Dark Ships:
SDA Sensor Dampening Arrays: A high tech “cloaking” technology. It’s the opposite of the Star Trek version… it blinds sensors, not visuals. Not in use in blood and iron

Jump Ships
These small ships are “fired” interstellar distances by a precipitator, fight for a limited time before automatically “beaming” back to where they came from. also used for communication torpedoes. Also not in this story.


sound of Chris hanging up

sEX drive…thanks so much for making me snort Raisin Bran out my nose.

Awesome primer, lots to think about. More as soon as I get this flake extracted from my sinus cavity.

p.

Okay, I don’t even want to get into weapon attacks moving at FTL (“distortion”) speeds because that’ll just end up in tears. Or is the point of the distortion field not to make things move FTL, but to reduce the energy needed to get them up to just-under-FTL speeds? I’m sure there are all kinds of relativistic consequences of that, too, but at least I can get my head wrapped around that easier than attacks that occur before the attacker pulls the trigger…

This kinda-more-realistic-than-I-was-envisioning vision of Hammer tech strongly suggests to me that piracy and small-scale engagements are probably impractical if not impossible. Under this scenario, sensors are probably effective out to a few light-seconds at least. SDA would have to be awesomely effective and the sneaker-upper would have to be very, very patient. And then you’re probably talking about straight-up boarding actions rather than big lazy broadside attacks a la Battlefleet Gothic.

How expensive/rare/restricted/advanced are these anti-distortion distortion torps? Because I could totally see regions of space seeded with silent, nigh-invisible minefields armed with this stuff, just waiting to snag a ship so it can be engaged.

So, given there’s not much “surprise” to speak of in Hammer warfare and it’s really, really hard to achieve any kind of firing solution, I’m wondering if there’s much meaningful Hammer warfare at all! Perhaps it’s centered largely around immobile assets like space stations, moon bases, mining colonies, starports, etc. There aren’t discrete entry/exit point for ships arriving via HEx, are there? IE “gateways” or places where attackers/defenders could camp.

Just thinkin’ out loud. Thanks for the post, Chris!

p.

A key question is how far out from a planet or a star you have to be before Distortion can work. If you could stay in HEx until you’re so close to a target that you can open fire – and then zap back into HEx – it’d be possible to strafe a planet with nearly zero chance of being intercepted or hit; it’d also be nearly impossible to force another Hammer to fight you. But recalling this earlier discussion about some aspects of Hammer warfare, HEx starts to give out fairly far from planets, so it is possible for a defender to intercept incoming ships before they close to planetary bombardment range and for an attacker to catch defending ships too close to a gravity well/planetary accretion disk for them to HEx out.

But still, bringing a Hammer fleet to battle against its will is going to be tremendously hard, because they just have to keep far enough away from a solar system. I suspect interstellar fleet operations (as opposed to planetary sieges) would look a lot like Age of Sail naval warfare, where it was nigh-impossible to find an enemy fleet in the open ocean, let alone bring it to battle, and 90% of decisive battles happened close to land because one side was trying to invade another’s territory or blockade another’s ports. Trafalgar happens just off the Straits of Gibraltar, the Battle of the Nile happens on a river, the Spanish Armada battle is in the narrows of the English Channel, etc.

Given the extreme difficulty hitting targets with operational distortion drives, I see space combat occurring in two main paradigms

First is long range duels. Two ships, or fleets, with active SEx drives (heee) engage each other at long range, peppering each other with Q-beams. Such a battle will not be decisive, as either side can choose to break off at any time. A successful hit with Nails is one of the prime objectives in such a battle, because then the enemy is forced to remain in system until the damaged fleet can get its distortion drive online, else they must sacrifice it to withdraw.

(Question, does a successful Nails hit on the engines knock out both SEx and HEx? The Napoleonic equivalent of dismasting a target? In game terms, does it count as an Engines Destroyed hit? If so, they seem like pirate weapons, but what worries me is they are unable to achieve a Breach result against any kind of Mercantor which means they are unable to target a Mercantor’s engines.)

Second is close range slugging. Perhaps a squadron of Dark Ships manages to envelope a hostile hammer squadron, cutting off their line of retreat. Perhaps both ships are exiting a gravity well. Perhaps there is an objective, like a planet, that cannot be abandoned. In this situation, the aggressor has the ability to control the range and intensity of the engagement, much like having the Weather Gage in the age of sail. In this case, engagement ranges can be shortened to the point where lasers and missiles can play a powerful role again, and retreat becomes difficult. Ship velocities will be lower, as the confining battlespace prevents high speed maneuvers, lest one be carried all the way out of the battle and away from the objective one was protecting.

Edit: crossposted with Paul AND Sydney

Mike and I crossposted, but we’re very much thinking along the same lines. Jinx, buy me an [unspecified soft drink]! (Resources roll against Obstacle of 1, +1D if you name the soft drink).

Hey guys,

Answers to your bombardment below:


Paul B
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Okay, I don’t even want to get into weapon attacks moving at FTL (“distortion”) speeds because that’ll just end up in tears. Or is the point of the distortion field not to make things move FTL, but to reduce the energy needed to get them up to just-under-FTL speeds? I’m sure there are all kinds of relativistic consequences of that, too, but at least I can get my head wrapped around that easier than attacks that occur before the attacker pulls the trigger…


You’re right on the second point, Paul: nobody actually goes ftl. Time stays the same for the moving ship and the observer “outside”. A ship generates a pre-determined thrust vector, then engages its hex drive to increase the apparent effect of that vector.

Time gets wonky at the distortion boundary. In hex, it gets REALLY REALLY wonky. The sickness that travellers feel is from the distortion bondary travelling through their bodies as it expands out to its operating diameter. The field is manipulated by the tails you see in the comics. The tail can manipulate the emergence of the effect as well as its diameter, so there’s a very small emergence as the effect initiates (so the traveller’s body isn’t completely screwed by the time shifts), and it increases once it’s clear of the ship’s hull).


This kinda-more-realistic-than-I-was-envisioning vision of Hammer tech strongly suggests to me that piracy and small-scale engagements are probably impractical if not impossible. Under this scenario, sensors are probably effective out to a few light-seconds at least. SDA would have to be awesomely effective and the sneaker-upper would have to be very, very patient. And then you’re probably talking about straight-up boarding actions rather than big lazy broadside attacks a la Battlefleet Gothic.


The big lazy broadsides are actually the only way that ships without Q-beams can fight. Secondary weapons can only operate effectively against ships whose drives are Shut Down (term of art), so getting in close, or nailing a ship, or ambushing a ship inside orbit, or an asteroid field, or whatever it takes to shut it down… is a key tactical objective.

Note that if you can shut down a ship, and another ship with a Q-beam can land a direct hit on it (no small feat, even against a stalled ship), you will kill it outright, regardless of size or defenses.


How expensive/rare/restricted/advanced are these anti-distortion distortion torps? Because I could totally see regions of space seeded with silent, nigh-invisible minefields armed with this stuff, just waiting to snag a ship so it can be engaged.


Distortion torpedoes are as expensive as a small ship. They have their purposes, I’d imagine, but all you’re saving on money is crew facilities. One idea I’ve thought about is, defensively, seeding your gas giants to “nail” intruders who are trying to poach fuel.


So, given there’s not much “surprise” to speak of in Hammer warfare and it’s really, really hard to achieve any kind of firing solution, I’m wondering if there’s much meaningful Hammer warfare at all! Perhaps it’s centered largely around immobile assets like space stations, moon bases, mining colonies, starports, etc. There aren’t discrete entry/exit point for ships arriving via HEx, are there? IE “gateways” or places where attackers/defenders could camp.


There aren’t gateways, no. There are transit lanes that have been painstakingly mapped over the centuries (millenia) to allow travel between systems, avoiding dust clouds that shut down travel, but their entry and exit points are not exact. You can get an idea of which system a ship is going to based on its exit vector though.

The key to space warfare is particle (ie: gravity) fields. Star systems are essentially dust clouds spun out into a disk by the pull of their central star. North and South (relatively) of the disk, things are particle free, and HEx drives can micro jump around to their heart’s content. No space combat out there.

Inside the disk, most of the particles have been vaccuumed up by any planets in the system, but there’s enough there to prevent HEx expansions. SEx (ha ha) is fine, but that’s it.

Inside a planet’s orbit or in asteroid fields or dust clouds of any kind, no distortion at all (and that includes Q-beam hits, since they involve opening a distortion field).

Those are your strategic choke points. The moment a ship enters a system’s disk, it’s vulnerable to all sorts of attacks. It can’t just beam away on HEx. A faster ship can intercept it, shutting down its Distortion drives just by pulling alongside (its gravity field is strong enough to Shut Down the drive). Send in a nail and the ship is engaged until your guys can detatch it from the hull by going EVA.

Obviously, refuelling or entering orbit is the most vulnerable point for an attack.


Sydney Freedberg
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A key question is how far out from a planet or a star you have to be before Distortion can work. If you could stay in HEx until you’re so close to a target that you can open fire – and then zap back into HEx – it’d be possible to strafe a planet with nearly zero chance of being intercepted or hit; it’d also be nearly impossible to force another Hammer to fight you. But recalling this earlier discussion about some aspects of Hammer warfare, HEx starts to give out fairly far from planets, so it is possible for a defender to intercept incoming ships before they close to planetary bombardment range and for an attacker to catch defending ships too close to a gravity well/planetary accretion disk for them to HEx out.


Right. There are two strategic points that govern travel into and out of a planet: North and South watch. Those are the closest points “over and under” a planet that HEx can be engaged. Patrol ships are often posted there to check papers and ID’s of ships entering the disk.


But still, bringing a Hammer fleet to battle against its will is going to be tremendously hard, because they just have to keep far enough away from a solar system. I suspect interstellar fleet operations (as opposed to planetary sieges) would look a lot like Age of Sail naval warfare, where it was nigh-impossible to find an enemy fleet in the open ocean, let alone bring it to battle, and 90% of decisive battles happened close to land because one side was trying to invade another’s territory or blockade another’s ports. Trafalgar happens just off the Straits of Gibraltar, the Battle of the Nile happens on a river, the Spanish Armada battle is in the narrows of the English Channel, etc.


Yes! A fleet is invulnerable until it enters a system disk to re-fuel or launch an invasion. Age-of-sail comparisons are good here.

Countercheck
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Given the extreme difficulty hitting targets with operational distortion drives, I see space combat occurring in two main paradigms

First is long range duels. Two ships, or fleets, with active SEx drives (heee) engage each other at long range, peppering each other with Q-beams. Such a battle will not be decisive, as either side can choose to break off at any time. A successful hit with Nails is one of the prime objectives in such a battle, because then the enemy is forced to remain in system until the damaged fleet can get its distortion drive online, else they must sacrifice it to withdraw.


Yes. Q-beams at long range is the basic paradigm. Once ships begin to be hit, they will lose their ability to operate distortion drives and become targets for boarding or annihilation.

A comment about Nails and Fighters. Nails are less about shutting down a ship with an operating D-Drive than they are about keeping a ship that’s shut down, shut down. Any sort of weapon hit (particularly from a Q-beam) is going to cause a shower of particles to shoot off of the target’s hull and out into its Distortion field, shutting it down. That’s a temporary shut-down though, since once the ship can drive clear of the debris, it can engage its D-drives again. A Nail or a boarding ship (or fighters staying in close), can prevent the drive from re-engaging.


(Question, does a successful Nails hit on the engines knock out both SEx and HEx? The Napoleonic equivalent of dismasting a target? In game terms, does it count as an Engines Destroyed hit? If so, they seem like pirate weapons, but what worries me is they are unable to achieve a Breach result against any kind of Mercantor which means they are unable to target a Mercantor’s engines.)

Yes, the Distortion Drive is down in all of its aspects.


Second is close range slugging. Perhaps a squadron of Dark Ships manages to envelope a hostile hammer squadron, cutting off their line of retreat. Perhaps both ships are exiting a gravity well. Perhaps there is an objective, like a planet, that cannot be abandoned. In this situation, the aggressor has the ability to control the range and intensity of the engagement, much like having the Weather Gage in the age of sail. In this case, engagement ranges can be shortened to the point where lasers and missiles can play a powerful role again, and retreat becomes difficult. Ship velocities will be lower, as the confining battlespace prevents high speed maneuvers, lest one be carried all the way out of the battle and away from the objective one was protecting.


Exactly right. Ships can’t actually fire while their distortion boundary is up… the time-distortion fucks up their sensors. So ships “phase” in and out of distortion, dropping out long enough to get a fix with sensors and launch their attack, then driving ahead to a new position before dropping out again.

Sensor drones are very very big, because you can drop a drone early in the fight and have it develop firing solutions which it can feed to you the next time you drop out of distortion.

A note on Dark Ships: they use an unabashedly handwavium technology. They are just too cool not to exist, however. They are submarines, and a whole slew of detection technologies exist to counteract them. I’ll write more about them later.

Chris

Okay, so I’m starting to see some narrative truisms coming out of this:

  • Most Hammer warfare occurs within the system’s gravity/particle disc, mostly around immobile assets.

  • Dark Ships are presumably more effective than the sensors they’re dodging, but following the submarine analogy they’re probably small, expensive and perhaps not as well armed as their prey. Presumably they’re used to immobilize bigger enemy craft so they can be engaged on the attacker’s terms?

  • Given the limitations of HEx and Q-beams, I don’t honestly see how this level of warfare ever takes place without something/someone shutting down the target’s drive long enough to work out a fire solution. Both the attacker and the defender must be out in instant-jumpaway space, yes? Perhaps there are Q-beam/sensor installations set up north and south of the elliptic, kind of the equivalent of big cannons at the mouths of harbors?

  • I’m digging the idea that the tech seems to support an Age of Sail style of warfare. Does that AoS vibe carry through culturally as well? We know there are trade ships, pirates, privateers, official navies…is there anything left to explore? Is there any sense that there’s a New World type region of space? Or is humanity pretty much hemmed in on all sides?

p.