War in the Future! -- Hammer Discussion

Cool analogy, Mike! Arguing the other side for a moment, Power armor does provide benefits: it can shrug off small weapons fire and provide protection against near-miss Q-beam hits. A big battleship with Factor-9 power armor can weather several Q-beam strikes before the armor is “saturated” and goes down. By strikes, I don’t mean direct hits, but 99% of Q-beam hits are not direct hits.

Psychologically, if you’re a Forged Lord and you’ve sunk a decade’s worth of profits into a warship, there’s going to be an urgent desire to protect that investment with all the armor you can buy. There will be daring lords who overcome that fear to develop aggressive designs like your Q-beam “Destroyers.” The Kestrel Frigate (illustrating the Hammer Patrol Craft in the Brick), is basically what you’re talking about. If you look at the sketch you’ll see an arrow pointing to the bow with the note “1 high…”, which, in the actual sketch reads “1 high-intensity Q-beam projector.” The Kestrel is a fast (D7) warship with 1 Q-beam and no power armor. The field generators are passive sensors designed to detect and interpret distortion field signatures (the panels are stowed during combat…).

Chris

Yes, this is assuming that you can make a Q-beam armed ship that is cheap enough to be more or less ‘disposable’ =)

Mike, you and I are thinking convergently again, I think: I had been thinking in terms of a “battlecruiser” class with the Q-Beam armament of a battleship, greater speed, but much lesser armor and secondary armament. The idea of an even more fragile, escort-class ship built around a single Q-Beam is intriguing, but a little scary – what if the enemy gets a shot anywhere near it?

The same thing that happens if a MTB suffers a straddle from a battleship main gun salvo… it dies. When light warships fight heavy warships, there’s only one result when the light one gets hit. The thing is, if the heavy gets hit with a Q-beam, it’s as dead as the light ships.

It’s really more like the battleship trying to hit the MTB with torpedoes. Whomever suffers the first clean hit dies. The MTBs die if they suffer near misses too, but if you have enough of them, you’ll generate the kill. They’d also have more of a psychological effect… Who really wants to risk a massive, expensive battlewagon against a piddling little patrol craft. Sure, the battlewagon will probably win, but all it takes is one clean hit. It might be unlikely, but these things happen… and no Hammer lord wants it to happen to HIM. If they were organized more like the vaylen, they might care less. The ships are clan property, not personal property. If one gets hit, well, it absorbed a shot that didn’t hit a naiven transport. For the greater good! But if it’s a hammer lord’s personal battleship that he’s spent a fortune refitting and repairing… is he really going to want to risk it on a game of pitch and toss? Against… escorts!!!

Going for a medieval metaphor, it’s like a knight fighting a crossbowman. There’s no honour in killing men who are lower status, and you stand a good chance of getting shot yourself.

The Q-Beam “apocalyptic near miss” is a real problem for lightly armed craft, though. To use game terms (loosely), we’re talking about Structural Scale Megablast damage, so even an Incidental hit from a Q-Beam is going to wipe out an entire squadron of vessels whose “Destroyed” tolerance is in the “Vehicular” range.
Presumably an “Incidental” Q-Beam hit is quite a distant miss where you’re still close enough to get the radiation burst, a “Mark” result means a near miss, and a “Severe” result means the distortion effect erupts right around the target, which nothing can survive.
So you get ships falling into roughly three categories of toughness (the names are notional and provisional):

Battleship (HEx) or Monitor (sublight)
Armor: Powered (destroyed tolerance = high superstructural)
Can survive Q-Beam hits of: Incidental or Mark

Cruiser (HEx) or Cutter (sublight)
Armor: unpowered heavy (destroyed tolerance = low superstructural)
Can survive Q-Beam hits of: Incidental only

Corvette (HEx), Assault Shuttle / Hammer Hussar / Gunship (sublight)
Armor: light (destroyed tolerance = high vehicular)
Can survive Q-Beam hits: never

Ships that can’t survive even an Incidental Q-Beam hit will have to hide in dust clouds – i.e. around planets, in asteroid belts, or in weird Sargasso zones of the system – to survive. They’ll be damned difficult to dislodge from such areas, but very limited in their capcity to maneuver across the system.

Ships that can’t survive even an Incidental Q-Beam hit will have to hide in dust clouds – i.e. around planets, in asteroid belts, or in weird Sargasso zones of the system – to survive. They’ll be damned difficult to dislodge from such areas, but very limited in their capcity to maneuver across the system.

Another way of looking at this is using the Age of Sail idea of “Ships of the Line.” Those big ships could stand in the Line of Battle, dishing out and taking tremendous punishment from the enemy. Frigates could participate around the fringes of such a battle, but would be pounded into splinters in moments if they participated directly. Frigates were more commonly employed as the eyes and ears of the fleet, and sent on independent missions all around the world. They were death to any merchant vessel, or anything smaller than themselves (schooners, galleys, etc…) that they could run down.

So there are two “worlds” of hammer conflict: the formal battle, in which Heavy, Q-beam armed, Power Armored warships duke it out in cataclysmic battle (a’la Trafalgar); and the much more common skirmishes between lighter warships, operating individually or in small groups. Those lighter ships (some with a Q-beam or two and a bit of Power Armor), will prey on similar targets, and rely on speed to get them out of harm’s way when the giant Hammers show up.

Chris

I have the feeling that big, formal battles are in fact so big that you could play an entire phase within them.

p.

Here’s one more attempt on my part to nail down types of ship – and, hey, to avoid the acronym “SEx” in the process!

Longhex (“Longship”)
(interstellar-ranged hyperdistortion drive)
A fully self-sufficient craft with fully HEx-capable distortion drive, crew accomodations, and – above all – the fuel stores to travel faster-than-light for weeks at a time.
Most Hammer Lord and merchant princes prefer longhex ships, large or small, because of the attractions of (1) the strategic/commercial flexibility of being able to move interstellar and (2) the self-sufficiency of not needing tankers, carriers, drop tanks, or any other specialized support to do it. But that same flexibility and self-sufficiency means that longhex ships spend more of their mass on propulsion (drives plus fuel) and are therefore less efficient than specialist ships.

Shorthex
(intrasystem-ranged hyperdistortion drive)
A craft with a fully HEX-capable distortion drive but only enough fuel storage for a few days or even hours of faster-than-light travel: sufficient to zip around a system at faster-than-light speeds (once you’ve accelerated clear of the Disk) but only a tenth or a hundredth of what’s required to make it to the next star system.
Shorthex ships are ideal for system defense outside the disk (“North Watch” and “South Watch”) and for fast commercial transit (e.g. first class passengers) within systems that have more than one settled body. They can also be converted to longhex ships relatively simply, by adding (massive) drop tanks.

Sublight
(intrasystem-ranged subliminal distortion drive)
A craft with a subliminal-only distortion drive, capable only of sublight travel. They are adequate for short flights in the Disk of a system where HEx doesn’t function anyway – say two worlds so close together, or so deep in an unusually dense Disk, that taking the “shortcut” into HExable space is worthwhile – or for slow hauls between planets for non-time-critical cargoes – say bulk supplies or raw materials.
Militarily, sublight ships are of very limited use, able to defend a single planet and its satellites, but on a system-wise scale all too easily outmaneuvered by HEx ships taking “shortcuts” in and out of the Disk.
A sublight ship can be converted into a shorthex ship, or even a longship, by adding a HEx array and appropriate fuel tanks, but this is effectively bolting on a second drive and requires some technical sophistication to make it work.

Thruster
(conventional reaction-based thrusters only)
A craft without a distortion drive at all. (Distortion drive ships have CTA thrusters to give the vectors that the artificial and localized distortion of the space-time continuum then magnifies). Such craft are outmaneuvered by distortion-drive ships, HEx or sub, beyond the Well of a specific world, and they are outmanuevered by grav/pressor sleds within the atmosphere. So thruster craft are optimized for, and capable of dominating, only one narrow shell of space, whose upper boundary is the radius from the planet at which dust levels attenuate to allow subliminal distortion drives to engage, and whose lower boundary is the radius from the planet at which gravity is strong enough for grav/pressor systems to work efficiently.
Commercially, thruster-only ships are commonplace: They are a cheap and effective way of shuttling between a planet’s surface, its orbiting satellites or space stations, and any deep-space ships parked in high orbit that cannot land or do not want to bother to. Militarily, they are very narrowly useful either as landing craft, launched by distortion drive-equipped motherships, or as close-in defense craft for a particular planet, often as a Q-Beam equipped mobile extension of fortresses on the ground.

A crucial question to Chris: Which of these types do you want to be common and which rare specialists? Because we can justify the underlying technology cost-benefit tradeoffs however we want once we know the desired effect.

From what you’ve posted so far, I’m thinking that most craft fall at one or the other of the the extreme ends of the spectrum: There are lots of fully HEx-capable interstellar ships, lots of local shuttles with no distortion drives at all, and precious little in between.
But you also mentioned “drop tanks” at one point, and if the mass required for fuel is a really significant factor (as the Vaylen Wars rules state), then the idea of a “shorthex” ship that has everything it needs to go interstellar but the fuel is very attractive: You only have to haul around the mass of all that fuel when you really need it, and the rest of the time you can strip down and have a much higher thrust:weight ratio. (Now, if “fuel” is mostly water, then it’s a really good absorber of heat, making it potentially dual-use as a heat sink in combat when you can’t expose your fragile radiator vanes, and even perhaps as shielding). If the efficiencies are attractive enough, you could even justify battleships with drop tanks!
Likewise, it’s important what the cost/mass penalty difference is between having a HEx-capable drive with only enough fuel for intrasystem hops (shorthex) vs. a sublight-only drive vs. conventional thrusters only. If there’s not much difference between the cost and mass of a HEx drive with enough fuel for intrasystem travel only and a subliminal distortion drive, then there’s no point to building a sublight-only ship when a shorthex ship can just zip in and out of the Disk. And if there’s not much difference between the cost and mass of a sublight-only drive and conventional thrusters, there’s no point in building a thruster-only ship that’s optimized only for a narrow zone around a planet. But the bigger the difference between drive types, and the more cost and mass increase each step of the way from CTA-only to subliminal distortion to hyperdistortion, the more it’s attractive to build different specialized types of ship.

P.S.: It’s even easy to justify different answers for different sizes of ship, e.g. “small ships are usually sublight-only, but large vessels almost always mount HEx drive.” You just have to handwave that the cost/mass of a distortion drive, or of a HEx drive specifically, doesn’t increase linearly as a proportion of the mass being moved. If the cost/mass of a HEx drive increases exponentially with the mass affected, then it’s much more efficient to make lots of small HEx-capable ships than one big HEx ship (which doesn’t sound like the Iron Empires universe, though). If the cost/mass of HEx drive increases logarithmically with the mass affected (which is similar to the real world, where large ships require relatively smaller engines to move at the same speed because the key issue is drag, not mass), then it’s much more efficient to make small ships without distortion drives and reserve HEx for big ships, like dreadnaughts, superfreighters, and carriers for all those little non-HEx ships.

Hey Syd,

Most ships have DD’s unless they’re really just designed to operate near their planet of origin (Gepard’s tug in Sheva’s War for example). Nobody’s going to argue that a car is more cost-efficient than a bicycle, but if you’re planning on traveling more than a few miles, the car’s going to win out over the bicycle (for all but the very athletic).

There are plenty of small transit-capable ships: escort vessels, scouts, couriers, mercators and private yachts, that sort of thing. The primary reason why a ship wouldn’t have transit capability is based primarily on its purpose. Kitting out a gunship with several week’s food, fuel, a sleeping compartment, etc… those are luxuries that could be given over to armor, sensors and other more immediate needs. Warship designers aren’t known for going in for luxuries. And it’s plenty easy to bolt a gunship to the hull of a larger ship that’s built for cruising, and drag it along to its destination.

The reason I say a ship is “transit capable” rather than “HEx capable” is that it’s important tactically for small combat craft to be HEx capable, even if they don’t intend to travel outside of the local system. A ship with HEx capability is essentially invulnerable to attack as long as it has HEx and stays outside of a system’s particle disk. If it can’t “micro-jump”, it’s much easier to pin and kill.

-Chris

Got it. So there are plenty of “shorthex” ships, to use the jargon I used above: capable of moving at HEx but without the fuel to transit between systems. And then there are a fair number of utility tug and shuttle-type vehicles that have thrusters only, for short-hauls around a particular planet in the Well where DD won’t work anyway.

But the category that is very rare in practice is ships with sublight-only distortion drives. Even if you’re not interested in anything more than interplanetary travel, it’s just so darn attractive to be able to pop up out of the Disk and zip across the system: If you have distortion drives at all, HEx is too good to pass up.

That’s it in a nutshell, Sydney. I just started reading the first Honor Harrington book this afternoon, and I’m enjoying it quite a bit. Talk about design-for-effect naval warfare, Paul! Weber’s spaceships are tough on the sides and vulnerable to raking fire at the bow and stern… hmmm…what does that remind me of?

Chris

Coolness. Two final questions for you, Chris, and then I think we can come up with a solid scheme for ship classes:

  1. How common are Q-Beams? Are they so bulky and costly that they are reserved for the largest capital ships (the battleship and battlecruiser classes), or do even escort-class starships usually have at least one Q-Beam (as your putting a Q-Beam on a “Kestrel-class Frigate” implies), or are even intra-system assault shuttle/Hammer Hussar/gunship class vessels capable of carrying a Q-beam?

  2. How common is powered armor, and how does it work? Again, is this something so complex, costly, and massive that it is reserved for capital ships, or is it common on even escort-class starships, or is it feasible even for intra-system gunships?

In both cases, we’re talking about dedicated warships only, not small craft. A Q-beam occupies roughly 1000 cubic tons of volume (including space required for crew, power, etc…). The same volume, dispersed throughout the ship, will give you one power grid. A secondary weapon requires maybe 5-10% of that, depending on the mount (missiles and torpedoes that require magazines, obviously being on the high end).

As for ship classes, I’m not wedded to terminology yet (since Hammer stuff is in its unpublished infancy). Frigates (the lightest “true” warship: fast and unarmored) will have one Q-beam, maximum. Destroyers/Cruisers will have 2-3. Battleships 4-6. Soul-destroying Dreadnauts 8. The same goes for powered armor. Light warships will have maybe 1 grid. Cruisers 2-3. Battleships 4-6. Soul-destroying Dreadnauts up to 9.

That’s the overall shape of things…

Chris

Got it. I’d been thinking of Q-Beams vs. no Q-Beams as the dividing line between battleships and cruisers, but in fact it’s the dividing line between frigates and small craft. So basically any warship (as opposed to a gunship/assault shuttle) will have at least one Q-Beam; and any but the lightest warship will have at least some powered armor.

Yeah. If you don’t have a Q-beam, you’re basically out of the fight against power-armored targets. There can be orbital bombardment ships that could be heavily missile armed, and big troop ships won’t have Q-beams or Powered Armor, staying out of the disk until the fighting arm clears out the major opposition.

Small ships will fight larger ships, but their goals isn’t to “hit” their victim, but to shut it down and nail it. Once they get in close, the Q-beams are useless. Not a duty for the faint of heart, certainly…

Chris

Do you have any thoughts on how shipboard powered armor works? Unlike a fortress, where you can just boil off the local aquifer, getting rid of the absorbed heat is a big problem in a vacuum.

Hammer Lord Moeller sat quietly in his command chair, fingers steepled. A cigar smouldered in its clip on his desk. Outside his command cabin’s viewport, the stars’ color wavered from white to blue to red, wavelengths shifted by the intervening distortion boundary. He wondered, distractedly, where his tech was with the Power Armor specs he’d requested earlier. No matter. He had an hour cruising time to North Watch. Moeller sighed, running his fingers through his hair and realized that he was in desperate need of a shower.

Hair? WTF? That’d better be a wig, Moeller.

  • Forged Lord Pedanticus Nitpickstickler.

Hey, Philippe d’Artois gets to have hair, and he’s wearing Iron at one point. Lucky bastard. Baron Sheva gets to have hair too, but I’m not sure that’s Iron he’s wearing.