Criticism of Realm Guard Rangers

[Irminsul]

@luke

Forgive me Patrick if I find those a bit bland. They’re pretty typical RPG abilities.

How do you use Grief? Oh my. You use it for funeral rites. You use it to swear vengeance or enact revenge on your father’s murderer. You use it to forgive.

How do you use Tradition? To right fallen communities, to bring them from the path of the Shadow. To go before the king. To teach children, to impress foreigners, to be really conservative assholes. Why did Numenor fall? It broke with Tradition.

How do you use Family? To sire children, to convince your wife, to argue with your father, to put your upstart brother in his place.

Escaping, Climbing, Foraging and Hiding are obviously useful, but they are directly at odds with the expectation and needs of the Mouse Guard and the mouse communities. Obviously, the Tolkien stuff needs a slightly different premise, but it needs a strong one nonetheless.

-L

Caul -
This quote is from when the hack was first being made.

[caul]

So basically in Realm Guard using your Nature at all in any “adventuring” type way has a chance of Taxing it.

[caul]

So basically in Realm Guard using your Nature at all in any “adventuring” type way has a chance of Taxing it.

[Irminsul]

@luke

Okay, I’ve given this some thought and consulted with my muse, Msr Sorensen. This is a near-perfect hack except for Nature. As it stands now, it’s twinky power fantasy. It’s about awesome hiding killing dudes who hide and kill. Why? Nature.

Nature in Mouse Guard is a force at odds with the duty that must be performed. As it stands now, Nature in this hack is perfectly in tune with the duty. This does not adequately represent the source material. Aragorn is not at peace with himself and his role. To put it in game terms: His Nature is one thing, his duty is another.

Therefore, I propose Nature’s descriptors for these Rangers be Grief, Tradition and Family.

Grief – the weight of the tide of time upon the immortal and long-lived
Tradition – the rituals, etiquette, mores and values of this most venerable culture
Family – the deep-seated instinct to build families, dynasties and lineages.

Note well that none of these are particularly useful to their duty. In fact, these qualities call these men home like a siren song. At home, they can mourn their grief, practice right and good traditions and tend to their families. In fact, this is what they fight for when they roam and range. That internal conflict will add depth and vulnerabilities to these hardened fighting men.

-Luke

This.

[Rafe]

I think caul’s point is that he doesn’t see Grief, Family and Tradition as usable during missions, whereas Hiding, Escaping, Climbing, etc. can be.

The thing is this: Rangers can use their Nature within missions, just not for action style conflicts. Whereas mice use theirs in chases, fights and animal fights, Rangers will use theirs in speeches, negotiations, arguments, etc. So physical vs. mental.

[caul]

@Rafe

I think caul’s point is that he doesn’t see Grief, Family and Tradition as usable during missions, whereas Hiding, Escaping, Climbing, etc. can be.

The thing is this: Rangers can use their Nature within missions, just not for action style conflicts. Whereas mice use theirs in chases, fights and animal fights, Rangers will use theirs in speeches, negotiations, arguments, etc. So physical vs. mental.

Exactly my point, and I am beginning to see yours. I am also beginning to see that you don’t want to use Nature all the time, and that Tax is good.

[luke (Luke Wheel)]

Nature must be in conflict with your duty.

[caul]

A new thought (perhaps for the next version). Shouldn’t Goblins and Orcs suffer a penalty for acting in sunlight. They are not turned to stone, but I remember from the books that Uruks were created to deal with sunlight activity. Perhaps -1D or -2D, being not so bad a Barrow-Wights?

[Rafe]

That’s a good idea. The Goblins (Moria Orcs) should definitely have that, though Mordor Orcs were often out in sunlight. They preferred night, but the sun wasn’t a problem for them, as I recall.

[caul]

@Treebeard in reference to Uruk-hai

For these Isengarders are more like wicked Men. It is a mark of evil things that came in the Great Darkness that they cannot abide the Sun, but Saruman’s Orcs can endure it, even if they hate it. I wonder what he has done? Are they Men he has ruined, or has he blended the races of Orcs and Men? That would be a black evil!

This would seem to suggest that all Orcs function poorly in daylight. I would suggest a -3D penalty after all, for consider the attack on Helm’s Deep and Gandalf’s coming, and from the books (sadly not the movies) the arrival of the Rohirrim at Pellanor Fields, and the effect of the sun glinting off of Theoden’s golden shield.

@Theoden's arrival at Pellenor Fields

Fey he seemed, or the battle-fury of his fathers ran like new fire in his veins, and he was borne up on Snowmane like a god of old, even as Orome the Great in the battle of the Valar when the world was young. His golden shield was uncovered, and lo! it shone like an image of the Sun, and the grass flamed into green about the white feet of his steed. For morning came, morning and a wind from the sea; and the darkness was removed, and the hosts of Mordor wailed, and terror took them, and they fled, and died, and the hoofs of wrath rode over them. And then all the host of Rohan burst into song, and they sang as they slew, for the joy of battle was on them, and the sound of their singing that was fair and terrible came even to the City.

The majority of the forces at the above battles, though of course Uruks were present, were good old fashioned Orcs, and thus the panic and lose of fighting skill at the sight of the sun.

Uruk-hai are of course unaffected.

[Rafe]

Yeah, may give Moria Orcs -2D, and Mordor Orcs -1D.

[caul]

Another idea for tweaking the next version. I don’t see the point of Alchemist if it is mainly used to make poultices for Healers to use, which Healers can make for themselves. I would just remove Scientist altogether, unless you can make Alchemist more a matter poisons and the like (which a Band of Heroes in Arda wouldn’t use anyway…).

Also, I don’t see the point of separating Animal Handler and Herdsman. In MG, I see the difference in Apiarists and Insectrists, mostly in the background of the setting, but I think Animal Handler would handle every need from milking, husbandry, and training, in Middle Earth.

And FYI I love what you’ve done, I’m not bashing, just suggesting…

[Rafe]

I’m all for simplification! I’ll take a gander and try to think of scenarios where those skills would need to be split out. If not, I’ll amalgamate.

[Saint_Sinner]

@caul

Could someone give some examples of how those nouns would be used then? I don’t see how to apply them in place of skills, as one can do with Nature, nor how to determine if an Action is with or against said Nature.

We followed Luke’s examples at my Gencon sessions. We used:

Tradition to convince a mayor to support our mission, to guilt a drinking Ranger to take it home and not embarrass us, and to rally our team before taking back an ancestral home.

Grief to avenge a fallen Ranger (a couple of different actions), to bury said Ranger, and to get everyone on the same page before continuing the mission.

Family didn’t come up (we were doing a single session and not around any areas the players were from).

Is that useful?

[Saint_Sinner]

@caul

I don’t see the point of Alchemist if it is mainly used to make poultices for Healers to use, which Healers can make for themselves.

I used Alchemist a lot in the game test at Gencon. To understand the concoction the orcs were using. To create a mechanism to set off barrels of heat inducing tar/pitch. It includes all the mechanisms, potions, breeding programs of Sauron and Sarumon, etc. Loremaster is ‘bookish’ and not directly practical except for the subtle magics of the wise. Alchemy is really useful. Too useful. Delving into the really powerful stuff was mostly done by the enemy. Going there was one of the things that may have contributed to Sarumon’s fall…

@caul

Also, I don’t see the point of separating Animal Handler and Herdsman. In MG, I see the difference in Apiarists and Insectrists, mostly in the background of the setting, but I think Animal Handler would handle every need from milking, husbandry, and training, in Middle Earth.

This may have some legs. I could see doing this. During our Gencon session, it came up that there might be a need for some sort of movement skill (Athletics?) and some sort of Perception skill.A need for some sort of positioning came up as a maneuver and I wasn’t sure how to determine if players found something in a village (if it was wilderness I’d have them using Pathfinder, etc and put that up as a twist for yes or no).

If you added that, it would keep the skill list about the same size.

[caul]

@Saint_Sinner

I used Alchemist a lot in the game test at Gencon. To understand the concoction the orcs were using. To create a mechanism to set off barrels of heat inducing tar/pitch. It includes all the mechanisms, potions, breeding programs of Sauron and Sarumon, etc. Loremaster is ‘bookish’ and not directly practical except for the subtle magics of the wise. Alchemy is really useful. Too useful. Delving into the really powerful stuff was mostly done by the enemy. Going there was one of the things that may have contributed to Sarumon’s fall…

Which is why I would suggest leaving it out. You don’t see any of the Wise or Heroes doing this in Middle Earth, lest they become one of the Enemy.

@Saint_Sinner

This may have some legs. I could see doing this. During our Gencon session, it came up that there might be a need for some sort of movement skill (Athletics?) and some sort of Perception skill.A need for some sort of positioning came up as a maneuver and I wasn’t sure how to determine if players found something in a village (if it was wilderness I’d have them using Pathfinder, etc and put that up as a twist for yes or no).

If you added that, it would keep the skill list about the same size.

Movement in the immediate sense (climbing a tree rather than forging a path) is Health rather than Pathfinding. Perception as I understand is covered under Scout.

[Saint_Sinner]

@caul

Which is why I would suggest leaving it out. You don’t see any of the Wise or Heroes doing this in Middle Earth, lest they become one of the Enemy.

Then I’d leave it out of your game. I see this as one of the challenges of the Fourth Age. Do they use this knowledge they find in the towers? Even Sarumon’s interest was not opposed by the Council of the Wise (just considered dangerous). Who’s going to stop men from accessing this knowledge?

Now, King Elessar may say no and if a Ranger had this it would be story grist. The enemies and likely other men may have a sprinkling of this skill so I say keep it in and tell the players its off limits or will cause complications if the king has spoken about it.

@caul

Movement in the immediate sense (climbing a tree rather than forging a path) is Health rather than Pathfinding. Perception as I understand is covered under Scout.

Yeah, I bet you’re right on the movement thing. It was to do a maneuver in combat so my mind blocked a little allowing something other than a skill or Nature. The perception was more investigative in a urban-ish setting. Just didn’t seem to fit well. Scout may not be a bad choice at all if you don’t want to change it.

[Rafe]

Just a note. v1.6 will take a while. There’s been a lot of good feedback to be added, but the main thing has been adding a Nature and description for various locales, and it’s royally screwed the layout. That’s what will cause this next version to take some time.

[caul]

Hey that’s cool…I’ll just keep dropping my ideas here…

[salvagebar]

Scott, did you come up with a way to work Dúnadan Nature into the “Skills by Conflict Action” matrix? That is, did you allow players to use Nature as the Defend and Maneuver action skill for Fight conflicts, without the risk of Tax?

I have a good grasp of the Nature descriptors, and my players can work them into conflicts in interesting ways, I’m sure. If Ranger Nature doesn’t fit for those actions, which I don’t think they do, what skill replaces it? Fighter is the obvious choice, though it makes that skill (which most people already consider a big deal) to become even more important than it is now. I am inclined to allow players to substitute any skill they can work into the story, which rewards creativity.

In fact, I have convinced, myself. Scott, I still want to know what your solution was, but for my RG session tonight, I will allow substitutions of any skill, if a player can work it in. This could lead to a little friction if I disagree with something, but the payoff is opening player creative options - I think it is worth it.