Hypothetically…Theoretically…
If there was going to be a second edition of the Mouse Guard RPG, what changes or suggestions would you make?
Include the Mount training rules in the base book.
Clarify if fighting a weasel is a fight animal or fight conflict.
Purely theoretically, I would include a line or two about using Wises to establish facts in the skill list entry for Wises. This is not explained in the text at all. It only gets mentioned once in a short sentence in the introductory chapter.
Using disposition as “hit points” in conflicts, like in Torchbearer, would be sweet.
Some sample weapons for weather and terrain for use in travel conflicts would be very helpful for new GMs. If there’s enough space for all the weapons and stuff from the New Rules and New Mission booklet, including those would be nice.
An additional line or two about the handling of multiple teams in conflicts, and how to establish a compromise when one of the teams drops out. This has come up a lot on the forum.
A very small point: I would clarify the rule for Recovering Quickly in the Traits chapter, or change the example which contradicts the rules for recovery order.
(A clarification of the difference between recovering from a condition and alleviating it might prove helpful for new players, too.)
Purely hypothetically, of course.
Purely theoretically, my wallet may have to hunt you down and thrash you…
That said, I think you could clarify Conflicts between multiple teams better if all the HELP ME threads are any indication. I also think some description/examples of Tests between PCs and how Twists and Conditions both apply in those cases.
More examples of play during weather and wilderness conflicts would be cool, especially extended examples.
Torchbearer Hit Points i agree with.
Further explanation of help - is it relatively freeform or as limited as in TB (i would like the limit better)
The bit about the distances on the map.
One thing that I would find useful would be “Physical” rewards to give the players as they are used to playing games where they can loot money and better weapons from defeated enemies/places.
Also a section about how to plan an effective campaign would be greatly appreciated.
Hyper-hypo-theoretically:
- All of the content from the Revised&Expanded booklet.
- An actual play chapter consisting of a full session of play.
- No box (not that I actually care whether it was released in a box or not, but hypo-theoretically, I think that this suggestion might make Luke hyper-happy).
- MORE AMAZING PETERSEN ART!
- My theoretical name in the back of the book – if this project was theoretically Kickstarted, I would very non-theoretically back it.
- De-duplication/consolidation of rules, skills, and other content which are listed in more than one area of the book.
- A “Welcome to the Guard” PDF and/or printed comic book, suitable for distribution to new players of the game, giving them just enough material to learn the basic dice mechanics and flavor/feel of the Mouse Guard setting. Something like what Andy did for TBZ.
What I would not change, theoretically or otherwise:
- Dispo stones in Conflicts may be a fun change, but pre-defined Conflict types/goals would not (imo)
This sounds like something David would have to put together, but it’d be awesome if you were hypo-theoretically able to get him onboard. (Unless you could cobble it together out of the pre-existing comics? If you can manage the rights.)
The Actual Play chapter is something I wholeheartedly endorse, because one of my friends struggled when trying to grasp the flow of play between the Players’ Turn and the GM’s Turn. Along with that note, since the game seems to be turning into a recommendation for newbies, GM advice on how to spin story out of the Player’s Turn (and other things) would be excellent.
Heck, I wouldn’t bat an eye if an Adventure Burner-style book for Mouse Guard came out.
This is a big topic. I’ve been thinking for a few days what I could add. I’m already writing a Guide to Mouse Guard, but had not thought of what I’d include in a second edition.
Since Luke hid the ‘edition’ term rather than ‘printing’, I’m going to assume that considerations are being levied about smoothing rules, rehashing mechanics, or developing deeper and wider sample materials. Is that a fair assumption? or a foolish guess?
Starting at History of the Guard:
- more historical background including elements of The Black Axe as fodder for campaigns set in other eras (possibly entertaining elements from Legends of the Guard)
- increased emphasis on the duties of the Guard–indicate this is the core of the intended adventures for missions despite how much sessions may stray
Moving into mechanics of the designed game:
- no changes to character sheet or stats/attributes for characters: nothing added, nothing subtracted
- alteration(s) for Persona:
- remove MVP as method to earn; replace with ‘Tipping the Scale’, This award is given to any mouse whose skills or wises (not abilities) were used to dramatically alter the course of the session or succeeded at accomplishing the mission. One or all the players may earn this award, but a player may earn only once per session.
- alteration(s) for Fate:
- remove Reroll Sixes as method of use; replace with ‘Reroll Ones’, A player may use 1 Fate point after a rolled test to reroll any cowards which came up showing only one pip; twos and threes stick, but ones can be turned around with the winds of fate. (potentially, this allows the Fate point to be used more frequently, but not too frequently; also, it appears not to step on the toes of a level 3 Trait)
- alteration(s) for Conditions:
- rename Angry to Upset; Upset is a better descriptor for how I use it. The mice might be angry, sad, disturbed, holding a grudge, depressed, unbalanced, etc. Not all of it is angry passion, sometimes it is just being upset about how things are going. (once told a player his mouse had drawn a fantastic map, but was Angry that it wasn’t a better map; wasn’t quite the right impact)
- (possibly) allow Conditions to be rated like Traits: level 1-impact as currently written, recovery as currently written; level 1 Condition, if left unrecovered, can become level 2 (likewise level two can become level 3) for GM to offer success w/ Condition despite that Mouse has the condition. Level 2/3-impact doubled/tripled (e.g. Injured 1: -1D to all; Injured 2: -2D to all; Injured 3: -3D to all). Once a mouse has reached a level 3 Condition, they must face dire circumstances if recovery attempt is failed–similar to TB, death; or similar to Nature 0/7, earn related Trait and leaves play for a time (incapacitated by the Condition). (still needs work)
- alteration(s) for Recovery:
- Angry/Upset recovery not subject to Recovery Order; player may attempt to overcome emotional distress even while Hungry, Tired, Injured, Sick
- (possibly) Recovery of rated Conditions (as described above) may require multiple attempts; each attempt reduces Condition by Margin of Success. So, a mouse suffering Injured 3, for example, makes an attempt to recover: Health Ob 4 and gains 4s–margin of success is 0, so they only recover 1 level; now, at Injured 2, they seek out a physician to attempt the Healer Ob 3: physician gains 4s–margin of success is 1, so they recover 2 levels; now at Healthy (Injured 0). (still needs work)
- alteration(s) for Conflicts:
- allow special use of Condition during Conflict by players; this is like a bargaining chip and should be used with care. After the actions are announced, tested, and results given, a player may exchange the taking of an appropriate Condition instead of losing Dispo. This may only be used to avoid loss of Dispo, not during Defense or to counter Maneuver. Conflict type and group consent indicates Condition gained. Rules text indicates Dispo salvaged: (a level of) Injured or Sick prevents 2 Dispo loss; (a level of) Tired or Angry prevents 1 Dispo loss; Hungry/Thirsty cannot be used in this way. It would possibly cause Conflicts to take longer, and may be a poor design choice for this reason; also, it may encourage gaming the system a bit. The players, however, gain a small bargaining chip to exchange a known Condition to stay in the Conflict a bit longer in hopes of improving Compromise results with another action volley. (still needs work)
Continuing into Denizens, Settlements, Recruitment, and Sample materials:
- some increased NPC sheets, possibly a section about creating NPCs and developing recurring characters
- some additional Settlements with details and sketches of local residents, possibly a section about developing existing settlements
- alteration(s) for Recruitment:
- Guardmice may consider Haggler and Laborer part of the [experience in the Guard] list
- Patrol Guard may consider Haggler and Administrator part of the [experience in the Guard] list
- Patrol Leaders may consider Administrator and Loremouse part of the [experience in the Guard] list
- some added fluff material about wises, possibly selecting a handful of wises with a paragraph indicating how much scope is outlined by the unique knowledge
- increased emphasis on cloak color as a personality-related choice; the cloak should be likened to the coat of arms or clan tartan. Color descriptions chosen to better hide in the forest or grass relinquishes this key personal trait of a Guard mouse.
- some content to describe custom weapons and gear for conflicts as well as tools to assist GM in building and employing custom gear for conflicts
Concluding in Abilities, Skills, and Traits:
- allow and encourage Taxation for Resources in addition to Depletion. In the case of taxed resources, it is reflective of a mouse who is abnormally burdened with strained resources–this might be too many promises, too often staying in comfy inns and eating fine foods, or simply having misplaced useful tools. The taxed Resources can be restored in Winter just as Nature, and possibly by giving a Prologue. In the case of depleted resources, it is reflective of a mouse who suffered an abnormal reduction in overall resource management or lost gainful employment–this might be paying back a major debt, having a workshop destroyed or looted, or having a demotion in rank. (still needs work) [potentially, this could instead be treated more like Nature by having clear rules for taxed resources and giving the choice of depleting resources over to the player just as in depleting Nature in exchange for restoring taxed Nature; something to look at for Resources and Circles in order to give added tangible impact of drawing on those abilities]
- (possibly) split Scientist to Scientist and Naturalist. Scientist takes over the chemistry, physics while Naturalist takes over the botany, biology, astronomy.
- (possibly) spread engineering more liberally into Carpenter, Stonemason, Smith, etc. In other words, you don’t need a scientist to build a bridge, trap, or tower; the material will indicate the most appropriate skill for an act of engineering or manufacturing.
- Additional traits
That’s everything I could think of.
I actually have plans to write large portions of sample content in my Guide to Mouse Guard, but in light of how little time I can work on it, that might not be complete before a few more years.
One thing I’d really like to see would be a GM chapter with adventure ideas. One thing about a fantasy or sci-fi game is that there is a lot of things you can do and it’s exciting because there’s a lot of already published or movie source material. But Mouse Guard doesn’t have a lot of that. I’d love to see a how-to adventure section on how to make campaigns and ideas for interesting and varied antagonists.
Isn’t that the “Duties of the Guard” section?
I can empathize with the request being presented. Personally, I have very strong feelings about the game holding very tightly to the duties. The duties should be the impetus of the assigned mission. The obstacles interfere, interrupt, or distract from the assigned mission–even when they are also valid duties.
In the case of the duties forming the mission, this allows the obstacles to stray from duties. It is as though the other matters of Guard life are interrupting the Guard duties. For example, in Deliver the Mail, the assigned mission falls well within the duties. It is a normal and appropriate duty of the Guard to move mail among the settlements. However, the task of mail carrier can feel somewhat dull and mundane. Thus, the Wilderness obstacle interferes with the duties as assigned while the Mouse obstacle is a request to act outside the duties, it distracts. The Animal twist interrupts the assigned mission. The patrol must act to maintain their attention on the duty of the Guard–their duty to handle the mail.
As a counter example, in Trouble in Grasslake, the patrol is described as returning from pouring the scent border–they don’t currently have an assignment; however, the request to help against the turtle falls within the duty to hunt predators. The Animal obstacle is square in the middle of their duties–how will they deal with it?
Generating a lengthy campaign in other games often follows a grand quest or follows the desires and goals of the PCs. MG is quite different in that respect. The game session begins with a stop on the railroad, asking players to select a goal that fits both the assigned mission as well as the Guard duties as well as the intents and desires of the PCs. It actually can be a mouthful for new players. But there is (i think) solace in that MG doesn’t need a grand quest or a grand villain. The players get to inject that sort of thing by way of their Enemy relationship; the GM can use that right away as well as generating antagonists who only appear for one or two obstacles (such as mediating disputes or rescuing mice).
Another aspect of MG which strays (i think) from mainstream games is that the text doesn’t describe existing feuds in the settlements. Instead, it rightly gives advice about challenges in the Territories (pgs 185-190). Each of these can be considered for extended missions or campaign fodder. In contrast, I don’t think any needs to be the recurring session-to-session mission–the cyclical nature of (sorry) nature is omnipresent in the Territories. The patrol will see similar things happening again and again throughout the settlements and wilderness. The mice will always be under threat from predators; no one expects a grand quest to stop a villainous predator–that wouldn’t fit the tone. Predators should not be plotting and scheming; they should just be looking for their next meal. Similarly, the weather and wilderness is a cyclical force. The patrol will see similar weather patterns and patterns in the ebb and growth of the wilderness.
Using Mice obstacles is the best way to make a campaign with recurring NPCs, but even that doesn’t mean a GM must find a primary villain. I try to avoid that. In fact, I look most of all for ways in which the mice are just rubbing each other the wrong way, but are all seeking what they feel is really best. I’ll tell you about a situation that arose from just that. I like to think the Guard Captains each advise G over a particular topic or two; one of my invented NPCs is the commerce and finance adviser. He felt that the Darkwater Bay would be helped by a partnership between a Port Sumac shipping fleet captain and a Grasslake warehouser–both of those NPCs were pulled directly from the respective Enemies of two PC mice. Well, how he went about forming and supporting that partnership wasn’t very honest (in the eyes of the PCs); this brought about the conflict.
At the end of the session, both PCs chose to include him as an Enemy. I wasn’t initially planning to bring him back. It was only going to be a one-session cameo. He’s certainly on their list now.
Now, that Guard Cpt is still trusted by G. He’s not a villain. He’s not disloyal. But, he does have other plans which will bring him into conflict (i hope) with the PCs. He’s deceptive. He’s ambitious. He’s got his eye on wealth and luxury. He’s certainly not a grand villain trying to plot the downfall of the Territories. In fact, he really wants to help mice. He feels very strongly that he is helping mice. He moves about the Territories encouraging mice to save, to trade, to work, and to learn. He tries to establish banks and credit institutions. He’s even trying to establish a Territorial currency. All of that is fodder for his goals to just rub the wrong way against the PC patrol.
So, all that to say, I can really empathize with the request. Making creative obstacles, even though Weather and Wilderness are going to be cyclical and repetitive, takes some practice. There is great advice for that found in The Territories (pgs 167-172) as well as Seasons (pgs 135-166). Both of those chapters give loads of inspiration for Wilderness and Weather events. Creating Mice obstacles is a bit more effort, but there really is great inspiration in that Seasons chapter and in the Problems in the Territories section (pgs 185-190). Lastly, making Animal obstacles may often feel hardest, as though only predators are a serious matter to be faced; however, as you look through the descriptions of the animals (pgs 204-225), I think you can find loads of inspiration for how the animals interfere, interrupt, or distract from the duties of the Guard.
Most importantly, use the duties of the Guard (pgs 20-22) as a primary source of assigned missions. In fact, that Seasons chapter has good insights about which duties are most common among which seasons.
In respect to a second edition, I echo that additional advice about drawing together these elements into a mission, and stringing together missions into a campaign, would be a boon to incoming players and GMs. Personally, I think sample missions to provide examples and hands-on practice will serve better than an advice column.
- Clarify the use of crafting skills (esp. weapons)
- Clarify exponent limits
- change wises and traits to be like the TB ones
- conflict dispo as in TB
I would suggest you use the Oxford comma.
Colin, can you ban Johnstone?
This is going to sound kind of dorky but I think it’d be cool for there to be an optional phase in the game where the characters sit around and tell tales to their patrol mates of their ancestors or legendary guard mice they’d heard about kind of like in Legends of the Guard. The phase would matter in some way to the mission. For example one mouse has to buy the drinks in the player’s turn or one mouse gets access to a temporary trait shared with the main character from the tale in the next GM’s turn.
I would also love to see some more info related to the history of the Mouse Guard as well as the territories themselves. And just theoretically speaking, if you or someone can swing it, have it told by David Petersen in a Legend of the Guard type way.
I also whole heartily endorse the ideas in these various quotes found throughout the thread. Bold and underlined ones are ones I readily support:
[u]
An additional line or two about the handling of multiple teams in conflicts, and how to establish a compromise when one of the teams drops out. This has come up a lot on the forum.
I think you could clarify Conflicts between multiple teams better if all the HELP ME threads are any indication.
[/u]
- All of the content from the Revised&Expanded booklet.
* An actual play chapter consisting of a full session of play.
The part that is bold in the above quote is something that could help drastically in making the game easier for those playing and GMing it. As I have run into the same problem described in the below quote. They had some issues with the flow of the game and also had trouble with conditions. I have the box set and hardcover because I was preparing to GM for the first time and after a night of board gaming they talked about RPGs and said basically the same thing about Mouse Guard that is mentioned below. So now I my plans to GM Mouse Guard have been put on the burners atm 
The Actual Play chapter is something I wholeheartedly endorse, because one of my friends struggled when trying to grasp the flow of play between the Players’ Turn and the GM’s Turn. Along with that note, since the game seems to be turning into a recommendation for newbies, GM advice on how to spin story out of the Player’s Turn (and other things) would be excellent.
[b]Starting at History of the Guard:
- more historical background including elements of The Black Axe as fodder for campaigns set in other eras (possibly entertaining elements from Legends of the Guard)[/b]
- increased emphasis on the duties of the Guard–indicate this is the core of the intended adventures for missions despite how much sessions may stray
Continuing into Denizens, Settlements, Recruitment, and Sample materials:
[b]* some increased NPC sheets, possibly a section about creating NPCs and developing recurring characters
- some additional Settlements with details and sketches of local residents, possibly a section about developing existing settlements[/b]
- some added fluff material about wises, possibly selecting a handful of wises with a paragraph indicating how much scope is outlined by the unique knowledge
* increased emphasis on cloak color as a personality-related choice; the cloak should be likened to the coat of arms or clan tartan. Color descriptions chosen to better hide in the forest or grass relinquishes this key personal trait of a Guard mouse.- some content to describe custom weapons and gear for conflicts as well as tools to assist GM in building and employing custom gear for conflicts
One thing I’d really like to see would be a GM chapter with adventure ideas. I’d love to see a how-to adventure section on how to make campaigns and ideas for interesting and varied antagonists.
Now for a few of my own! 
I would suggest adding in the detailed maps of the settlements and definitely one of Lockhaven that you can find in the back of the comics. They’ll help players and GMs find out where to go for certain things and give everyone a nice visual of the various settlements.
I think also fleshing out how the denizens of the territories generally interact with the mice and mice of the Guard would be good. Just a few extra lines of fluff for birds, bats, owls, hares/rabbits, squirrels, weasels, ferrets, etc.
Lastly, since the box set has been near impossible to come by for just about everyone, I think the GM screen should be available for PDF download for free or at least for anyone who has purchased the core rulebook.
I think most of the technical issues have been covered, my suggestions have more to do with the flow of the book and how the book reads.
- Clarification of the maps
-
The font that is used makes it difficult to read the names of the towns. I was only able to decipher them by cross referencing with the descriptions in the book.
-
Please include a ‘default’ scale. (i.e 1 inch = 1 days of travel for e.g.)
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Include Venn on the map + Description in the book
- Reading Level / Language
- The book reads at an elementary school level, where the comics have a more sophisticated language (not by much, but it’s noticeable.) I would suggest that the language used to write the book should be “matured”, to a point that at least matches the comic books. I was really thrown off by terms like “Boy mouse” and “Girl mouse”. It made me wonder what the target age group of Mouse Guard really was. On the flip side it was incredibly easy to read, but I think even a kid knows what “male” and “female” or the term “men and women of the guard” would mean. (This is just one example.)
*The language of the book is so simple, that sometimes, it’s strangely confusing. ATM, I can’t think of any concrete examples, however there were times when I just wanted/needed a more precise description/explanation.
- Flow of the book
- The way the book is written, has readers flipping and jumping back and forth to different chapters in order to fully understand the rules. There are too many cross references. (This is extra annoying if you are trying to read the PDF version of the book.) I found it strange that character creation was at the end of the book, and not somewhere in the beginning. There are times in the book that specific game mechanics are mentioned, but then the explanation only comes much later in the book, which becomes confusing if you are just learning the game and have no idea what terms like “disposition” mean yet.
I say this because Burning Wheel is so incredible different than most RPG systems, that I think it’s important to be extra clear about the mechanics and terminology of the game. Be direct, be up front. Have it flow. Don’t save explanations for later, explain it right there and then.
All that being said, Mouse Guard still rocks, despite my personal annoyances with it. It still reads much better than most RPG books I’ve picked up.
Get rid of, redefine or rename “Mouse Nature”. While it kind of works with the mechanics of the game it does not work at all with the source material the game is trying to emulate. I would say any Mouse who joins the Guard is by definition not terribly mousey and none of the characters presented in the fiction ever seem to be particularly afflicted with such timidity.
Make the game a bit more flexible, scaling more naturally with more or less than three players.
Adding a scale to the map is a good idea.